[aguahombre]

Concentrating for the moment on a specific auction:

1N-2C
2H-? Where 2H showed 4 or 5 of them and responder is slammish with a fit.

On Vugraph from Bali I observed more than one pair in this situation.

One used 4D as a balanced Quant with a heart fit. Another used 4C to show the same hand. Presumably they both had 3S available for other hands slammish with a heart fit.

Are there posters out there with input on the methods who can provide a more complete "package" involving the differences among 3S, 4C, and 4D in this scenario?

Responder's quant was 4-4-2-3 with AX and XXX in the minors and a fifteen count...Again, one used 4C and the other used 4D.

[nate_m]

aguahombre, on 2013-September-25, 13:21, said:

Concentrating for the moment on a specific auction:

1N-2C
2H-? Where 2H showed 4 or 5 of them and responder is slammish with a fit.

On Vugraph from Bali I observed more than one pair in this situation.

One used 4D as a balanced Quant with a heart fit. Another used 4C to show the same hand. Presumably they both had 3S available for other hands slammish with a heart fit.

Are there posters out there with input on the methods who can provide a more complete "package" involving the differences among 3S, 4C, and 4D in this scenario?

Responder's quant was 4-4-2-3 with AX and XXX in the minors and a fifteen count...Again, one used 4C and the other used 4D.

I think the most common system is/was something like
3OM=slam try with shortness
4♣=RKC in M
4♦=BAL slam try with M fit

I think Grant Baze was credited with that structure.

A lot of people inverted 4♣ and 4♦ to allow for last train over the BAL slam try which is probably superior but I think the version with 4♦ BAL is the "original."

[TylerE]

In the one partnership I've played these sort of methods, after 1N (14-16)-2♣-2♥:

2♠ = Inv with 4♠
2NT = Inv without 4♠ or 4♥
3♣/3♦ = Natural, forcing, doesn't promise 4♠
3♥ = Inv
3♠ = Forcing, 4♥-3♠, to cater to opener's 5M
3N = 4♥ and exactly 2♠
4♣ = Straight Ace Ask, doesn't promise a fit
4♦ = Undefined
4♥ = To play
4♠ = RKC ♥
4N = Quant without 4♥

[TylerE]

In the one partnership I've played these sort of methods, after 1N (14-16)-2♣-2♥:

2♠ = Inv with 4♠
2NT = Inv without 4♠ or 4♥
3♣/3♦ = Natural, forcing, doesn't promise 4♠
3♥ = Inv
3♠ = Forcing, 4♥-3♠, to cater to opener's 5M
3N = 4♥ and exactly 2♠
4♣ = Straight Ace Ask, doesn't promise a fit
4♦ = Undefined
4♥ = To play
4♠ = RKC ♥
4N = Quant without 4♥

[aguahombre]

nate_m, on 2013-September-25, 13:56, said:

I think the most common system is/was something like
3OM=slam try with shortness
4♣=RKC in M
4♦=BAL slam try with M fit

I think Grant Baze was credited with that structure.

A lot of people inverted 4♣ and 4♦ to allow for last train over the BAL slam try which is probably superior but I think the version with 4♦ BAL is the "original."

Thanks, Nate, for that...and for answering in the context of the question regarding the difference between the two minor suit jumps. It would seem, however, that the 3OM bid might be used in all other cases of slam exploration with a fit, not just the tries with shortness somewhere ---without jeopardizing the quant vs. Wood meanings of the 4m jumps.

Karen Allison, commenting at one of the tables, said she only uses 3OM and had no idea what the 4m bids meant. Up until now, that has been our case as well; but we will be changing.

[Vampyr]

TylerE, on 2013-September-25, 14:39, said:

3♠ = Forcing, 4♥-3♠, to cater to opener's 5M

You don't seem to have a hand to show slam interest in hearts in a hand without 3 spades. You can get around this by playing 1NT-3♣ as 5-card Stayman.

[TylerE]

We have two ways of key carding and always stopping below 5M, and in one case, frequently below 4M. The 3m bids are also possible prelude to a slam try.

[Fluffy]

aguahombre, on 2013-September-25, 15:33, said:

Thanks, Nate, for that...and for answering in the context of the question regarding the difference between the two minor suit jumps. It would seem, however, that the 3OM bid might be used in all other cases of slam exploration with a fit, not just the tries with shortness somewhere ---without jeopardizing the quant vs. Wood meanings of the 4m jumps.

Karen Allison, commenting at one of the tables, said she only uses 3OM and had no idea what the 4m bids meant. Up until now, that has been our case as well; but we will be changing.

The classic meaning is that 3oM is balanced slam try, and 4m is splinter. But it was envisioned that 3oM as any splinter with 4m for balanced hands is better.

What I mean is: if 4m is used as balanced slam try, you can be pretty sure that 3oM is being used as an undisclosed splinter.

[Cyberyeti]

TylerE, on 2013-September-25, 14:39, said:

In the one partnership I've played these sort of methods, after 1N (14-16)-2♣-2♥:

2♠ = Inv with 4♠
2NT = Inv without 4♠ or 4♥
3♣/3♦ = Natural, forcing, doesn't promise 4♠
3♥ = Inv
3♠ = Forcing, 4♥-3♠, to cater to opener's 5M
3N = 4♥ and exactly 2♠
4♣ = Straight Ace Ask, doesn't promise a fit
4♦ = Undefined
4♥ = To play
4♠ = RKC ♥
4N = Quant without 4♥

How do you bid a 12 count (ie too good for invite) with 4♠ and not 4♥

[campboy]

TylerE, on 2013-September-25, 14:39, said:

3♠ = Forcing, 4♥-3♠, to cater to opener's 5M
3N = 4♥ and exactly 2♠

Should this say

3♠ = Forcing, 4♠-3♥, to cater to opener's 5M
3N = 4♠ and exactly 2♥

which would seem to make a lot more sense?

[Zelandakh]

What Nate wrote is almost certainly what was being played. We have already had a few threads on this so you might be able to find out more with a search. FWiiW, I play a more traditional approach with splinters:

1NT - 2♣; 2♥
==
2♠ = Baron range ask
2NT = invite with 4 spades
3♣ = puppet to 3♦ (weak or GF)
3♦ = slammy with 4+ hearts
3♥ = invite
3♠, 4m = splinter

The advantage of this is that you get a complete suite of cue bids and Serious/Frivolous over 3♦. I regard this as more important than a cheap RKCB and hiding the shortage. You can add a SID component to 3♦ if you want to check if Opener has 3433 shape. You could also combine the two by having 3♦ as a SI raise; 3♠ as an unknown splinter; 4♣ as RKCB; and 4♦ as a mild slam try. But this only works if you can bid the club-based hands a different way, such as through 1NT - 2♠ (also true for my method). In addition, you are losing 4 steps on the spade splinter, which again makes it questionable whether it is really worth it.