[MrAce]

Maybe i am old fashioned but ...why did pd not use blackwood ? If 4 NT does not mean blackwood as Aguaman says, then what is after 4♥ ? ♥ void or stiff A can be shown in responses to blackwood, so i do not buy the argumet that he did not use blackwood because he would not know the ♥ holding.

5 NT for COS does not sound right to me after inverted minor + splinter. there is something seriously wrong if you can not use blackwood and grandslam force/invitation 5NT at the same time when you choose to cuebid your way to grandslam, Utility of COG 5 NT serves a little purpose in this auction, if any, imho. Here he is at 5 NT, having no clue if you have ♦ A or not, no clue if you have Q of ♦ or not, no clue if you have ♥ A or a void. Looks like he made the right bid for the wrong reason, thank god his pd misunderstood him !

[Fluffy]

I am a bit lost by Chris and Timo's comentaries.

After 3♥+4♥ wouldn't we answer 4NT blackwood exactly the same way with ♥A or void?, to clarify:


♠10x
♥-
♦KQJxxx
♣KQJxx

4NT-5♣ (1 keycard) no need to show the void again.


♠xx
♥A
♦KJxxxx
♣KQxx

4NT-5♣ (1 keycard) partner will assume we have void in hearts, showing 2 would land us in grand slam off 1 ace.


Is what I am saying complicated?

[MrAce]

Fluffy, on 2013-December-09, 03:04, said:

I am a bit lost by Chris and Timo's comentaries.

After 3♥+4♥ wouldn't we answer 4NT blackwood exactly the same way with ♥A or void?, to clarify:


♠10x
♥-
♦KQJxxx
♣KQJxx

4NT-5♣ (1 keycard) no need to show the void again.


♠xx
♥A
♦KJxxxx
♣KQxx

4NT-5♣ (1 keycard) partner will assume we have void in hearts, showing 2 would land us in grand slam off 1 ace.


Is what I am saying complicated?

4 NT--5 NT (even number of keys + a void, obviously heart)
4 NT--6 ♦, odd number of keys + void.

So i was basically saying that, if 4♥ did not already show a void, we can go as above. If it already did, there is no need, you go with your regular key responses. Perhaps i am not as good as you guys in cue bidding my way to grandslams and stucked in the past with blackwood. Accidentally i end up in better contracts than those who mastered cuebidding, sue me for being lucky !

[Cyberyeti]

I would have bid 7♣ over 5N to show the ♣QJ.

I could have x(x), A, KQ10xxx, Kxxx(x) and this wouldn't matter on partner's actual hand, but is crucial opposite the same hand minus Q♠

[jogs]

CSGibson, on 2013-December-08, 11:39, said:

Here is the actual hand

Spoiler

---

partner always intended on driving to grand after 4♥, but was trying to use 5N as pick-a-slam between diamonds and NT to determine strain. His choice of raising diamonds was based on our opening structure, (we play a weak NT), and led to a much clearer auction than a 1♠ response would have, imo, even though it was anti-systemic.

Can't South be 4432 for his 1♦ opening? Why is North bidding 2♦?

[CSGibson]

jogs, on 2013-December-09, 09:27, said:

Can't South be 4432 for his 1♦ opening? Why is North bidding 2♦?

North is bidding 2♦ because he knows that if I have a balanced hand, I am at least 15-17 - we play a weak NT - and in that case he will convert to 6N anyway. On the other hand, if I don't have a balanced hand, he makes the auction easier by setting trump and asking for a description. If he had responded 1S, imagine the auction to follow - 2♣-2♥; 3♣-3♦; 4♥...now we are at the same place we were at 3♥, but a level higher.

[MrAce]

jogs, on 2013-December-09, 09:27, said:

Can't South be 4432 for his 1♦ opening? Why is North bidding 2♦?

There are couple of possible answers;


- In order to lose the spade fit forever if there is one or using spade bid later as natural to recover from it, disabling himself from using more effective than natural bids later after inverted minor.

- He is not good at managing the auction when he has a major suit+ fit to the minor.

- He does not like spade suit.

-He sucks at declarer play and he wants Chris to play the hand.

-He misplaced black cards and saw less than 4 spades

-Trying to gain time at MP, thinking that it is quicker if he sets the trumps now and asks for COG at 5 level, lol

-He does not like to make the same bids that a beginner would do, he believes as better player he has to put his sign on the auction

I dunno man, it's hard to understand experts sometimes

[CSGibson]

MrAce, on 2013-December-09, 04:26, said:

4 NT--5 NT (even number of keys + a void, obviously heart)
4 NT--6 ♦, odd number of keys + void.

So i was basically saying that, if 4♥ did not already show a void, we can go as above. If it already did, there is no need, you go with your regular key responses. Perhaps i am not as good as you guys in cue bidding my way to grandslams and stucked in the past with blackwood. Accidentally i end up in better contracts than those who mastered cuebidding, sue me for being lucky !

Yeah, I agree that void showing would be standard, but in this partnership we don't force to slam with 1 keycard and a void when we have shown opening values - we specifically reserve the jump for 3 keycards and a useful void (5N being 2 with a void). Even after 6D, partner does not know about the Q of diamonds, so GSF has more utility in case I'm 3=1=5=4, 3=0=5=5, 4=1=4=4, or any of the other myriad shapes I could be for this sequence.

[aguahombre]

CSGibson, on 2013-December-09, 11:43, said:

North is bidding 2♦ because he knows that if I have a balanced hand, I am at least 15-17 - we play a weak NT - and in that case he will convert to 6N anyway. On the other hand, if I don't have a balanced hand, he makes the auction easier by setting trump and asking for a description. If he had responded 1S, imagine the auction to follow - 2♣-2♥; 3♣-3♦; 4♥...now we are at the same place we were at 3♥, but a level higher.

Aha. Not being a weak Notrumper, I thought North's choice of the inverted Diamond raise was mere serendipity. Within your framework, it was different. Nevertheless, as Timo said, his 5NT was the right bid for the wrong reasons --- and his dogmatic "Nobody...." about GSF is a bit much. You have created an auction where choice of slams is not relevant, unless North can use your hypothetical 7♣bid with his hypothetical Heart Ace to count 13 tricks in NT.

[ArtK78]

I remember that in the original Romex book the systemic response to GSF with 2 of the top 3 was 7♣ regardless of the trump suit. This allows responder to set the contract, which might be different than the agreed upon suit.

I have never heard of anyone bidding 7 of a lower ranking suit in response to GSF as showing something in the suit.

[aguahombre]

ArtK78, on 2013-December-09, 12:49, said:

I remember that in the original Romex book the systemic response to GSF with 2 of the top 3 was 7♣ regardless of the trump suit. This allows responder to set the contract, which might be different than the agreed upon suit.

I have never heard of anyone bidding 7 of a lower ranking suit in response to GSF as showing something in the suit.

When you get beyond the agreed responses to GSF without two of the top 3, by definition you are bidding a lower ranking suit (or 6NT) and must have 2 of 3. Basically it can't hurt to have that bid mean something --- thus 7D would not mean anything other than answering the GSF question with 2/3.
I am not suggesting it is standard, however.

[ArtK78]

aguahombre, on 2013-December-09, 13:15, said:

When you get beyond the agreed responses to GSF without two of the top 3, by definition you are bidding a lower ranking suit (or 6NT) and must have 2 of 3. Basically it can't hurt to have that bid mean something --- thus 7D would not mean anything other than answering the GSF question with 2/3.
I am not suggesting it is standard, however.

In theory, you are correct - it can't hurt to have all idle bids have a meaning.

In practice, adding additional meanings to bids that might occur once in a lifetime is not a useful way to spend one's time. And, should the bid ever come up, the possibility of a monumental disaster is clear.

A friend and frequent partner of mine related to me the story of a friend of his who is a professional player. The pro's client insisted in reviewing their system notes frequently. Once, on getting back to the hotel room after a session, he wanted to review responses to a 5NT opening bid. As I said, in theory it is a good idea to have a well defined set of responses to a 5NT opening bid (whatever it means). In practice, it is a complete waste of time.

[FrancesHinden]

I can't see what 5NT could possibly have meant other than GSF, and it's a useful call when it comes up.

Our agreement is that we bid 6NT with 2 of the top 3 and 7C with 3 of the top 3. This is just in case partner is being clever and isn't intending to play in our suit at all.
Up to 6 of the trump suit we do have agreements for the meanings, but 6 trump suit = 0 others = 1 is the only thing of relevance that ever comes up.

[Zelandakh]

CSGibson, on 2013-December-09, 11:43, said:

If he had responded 1S, imagine the auction to follow - 2♣-2♥; 3♣-3♦; 4♥...now we are at the same place we were at 3♥, but a level higher.

If you were to play that 4♥ was a void splinter then you would be better placed in this auction despite being a level higher. FWiiW I think it is obvious for 5NT to be GSF in this auction when undiscussed.

[sathyab]

CSGibson, on 2013-December-09, 11:43, said:

North is bidding 2♦ because he knows that if I have a balanced hand, I am at least 15-17 - we play a weak NT - and in that case he will convert to 6N anyway. On the other hand, if I don't have a balanced hand, he makes the auction easier by setting trump and asking for a description. If he had responded 1S, imagine the auction to follow - 2♣-2♥; 3♣-3♦; 4♥...now we are at the same place we were at 3♥, but a level higher.

Couldn't 7♠ be in the picture if you had 4-4-3-2. Is there any way you can still get to a ♠ contract after a 2♦ start ?

[CSGibson]

sathyab, on 2013-December-19, 13:30, said:

Couldn't 7♠ be in the picture if you had 4-4-3-2. Is there any way you can still get to a ♠ contract after a 2♦ start ?

After that start we could not get to 7♠, so there was a risk, assuming we would be able to bid 7♠ when we had the appropriate fit.