[MrAce]

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Teams, all white, pd and opps are experts. ( this is not a tempo or U.I topic)

Your first pass was gf,

2♦ by them was natural

3♥ natural

Rest undiscussed.

1- Do you disagree with any of the previous calls you made ?

2-What do you do now ? ( and why please )

[mikeh]

Ugh....tough one


I think I need to know more than just that our pass was gf....I assume, in what follows, that it promised at least one control.

I might have raised 3♥ to 4...that is how little I liked my hand at that point. Partner had to have 6+ to bid them, since pass was forcing.


As it is, I seem to have found a nice hand opposite....partner is trying for slam despite my regressive 4♠ call. I don't have a lot extra....but I think the combination of the 6th spade and the diamond Ace is just enough.

I thought about a subtle last train sort of 5♥ call, but there are too many hands on which he'll correctly infer a trump issue and wrongly infer a diamond loser. So I think I just suck it up and bid slam. I probably need spades 2-2, but AKx AKQxxx x Axx, which would be a disappointing dummy on this auction, still gives me play on 3-1.

Club lead, win, top trumps, top hearts, pitching clubs, and hope hearts come in. Diamond lead, much the same but maybe win, ruff a diamond, then top trump then top hearts.

As to how confident I am....on a scale of 0-100%, I am about 55%. But of course, I haven't played with this partner before

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2013-December-20, 15:41, said:

Ugh....tough one


I think I need to know more than just that our pass was gf....I assume, in what follows, that it promised at least one control.

Tbh, i have no idea what did our first pass promised except than being gf. My logic says, after bidding 3 and 4 ♠ that pd knows we do not have enough to start with 2♠ over 2♦. But that is my own interpretation, others may play it differently.

[mikeh]

MrAce, on 2013-December-20, 15:49, said:

Tbh, i have no idea what did our first pass promised except than being gf. My logic says, after bidding 3 and 4 ♠ that pd knows we do not have enough to start with 2♠ over 2♦. But that is my own interpretation, others may play it differently.

I would assume that 2♠ directly wouldn't have said anything different about hand strength than did the pass, but would simply have shown strong(er) spades..KQxxx or better for me. I know that some suggest we relax the honour requirement in favour of showing the suit, in case LHO bounces the overcall too high, but my view is that doing so creates equivalent problems when partner can't trust our suit quality when we do bid, plus opps aren't usually able to risk bouncing plus we can often get back to par afterwards anyway by proper use of forcing pass principles....all told, a complex topic

[Fluffy]

I would bid 5♥, I Don't like my hand that much, but can't sing off when I control the suit partner didn't cue yet, even when its his own.

[trevahound]

Fine with the auction so far. 4♠ was "best of awful options" I think. 6♣ for me now. 2nd choice 7♣. Am pretty sure we make 7♣, but as usual after preempts, I'm forced to guess.

[mikeh]

trevahound, on 2013-December-20, 17:02, said:

Fine with the auction so far. 4♠ was "best of awful options" I think. 6♣ for me now. 2nd choice 7♣. Am pretty sure we make 7♣, but as usual after preempts, I'm forced to guess.

I bet you misread the auction. I bet even more that we don't make 7♣.

[trevahound]

mikeh, on 2013-December-20, 17:20, said:

I bet you misread the auction. I bet even more that we don't make 7♣.

When a suit is bid naturally on my left, and I can cue bid it, that's my cue bid. A "suit" bid naturally on my right when I could have cue bid the suit on my left should be natural, in my opinion. (1m) - p - (1M) - 2M is played as natural, at least amongst my peers. I would not suspect 4♣ was a nebulous cue, but rather a real suit. With a heart uni-suiter, it's completely unnecessary. With spade support and a partner who's trying to be clever, he'll be able to correct any number of clubs to spades.

I may be crazy or have very poor judgement, but I didn't miss opps bid clubs first. I missed slam in Atlanta because it's hard to get to slam in a suit opps bid first. Even non-psyches don't mean they own the suit, and if all non-vuln suit bids after we open 2♣ are insured by Lloyds of London, I'll eat a bug.

If there's something else I'm missing in the auction, then I'm still missing it.

[mikeh]

trevahound, on 2013-December-20, 18:05, said:

When a suit is bid naturally on my left, and I can cue bid it, that's my cue bid. A "suit" bid naturally on my right when I could have cue bid the suit on my left should be natural, in my opinion. (1m) - p - (1M) - 2M is played as natural, at least amongst my peers. I would not suspect 4♣ was a nebulous cue, but rather a real suit. With a heart uni-suiter, it's completely unnecessary. With spade support and a partner who's trying to be clever, he'll be able to correct any number of clubs to spades.

I may be crazy or have very poor judgement, but I didn't miss opps bid clubs first. I missed slam in Atlanta because it's hard to get to slam in a suit opps bid first. Even non-psyches don't mean they own the suit, and if all non-vuln suit bids after we open 2♣ are insured by Lloyds of London, I'll eat a bug.

If there's something else I'm missing in the auction, then I'm still missing it.

I have no idea how you think that the given auction is analogous to (1m) P (1M) 2M.

FWIW, I and virtually everyone I know, who has any clue about the game, plays 2M as natural, but I very much doubt that you'd find anyone, any good, playing 4♣ in the OP as natural.

There is the frequency issue....how often is LHO going to psyche here rather than make a lead-directing or long suit call? If he is psyching, why allow opener the room to make a natural double of 3♣ rather than simply blast in diamonds? Yes, you can come up with 'answers' but none that stand up on a frequency basis....and if 3♣ is most often natural or lead-directing/fit implying, then it is probably sub-optimal to design our bidding methods so as to find slams in clubs.

Secondly, if partner has clubs such that he is suggesting a high level club contract, with a heart club 2-suiter, then he can usually and should almost always double (unambiguously penalty here, when 3♣ is often lead-directing) and later, if need be, bid hearts.

As for choice of cues....firstly declarer, with a first round club control (and perhaps AK or AQ, with the K indicated onside), and second round diamond control would, in most cuebidding schemes, be compelled to cue clubs first.

Telling us that you missed a slam in some event because you belonged in a suit bid by an opponent, without giving us the hands or the auction, is not exactly a persuasive argument.

Even if the auction were analogous, which is prima facie improbable, the fact that on one hand out of the tens of thousands you have played (I assume) and the (likely) even higher number that I have played, it was best to be able to reach slam in a suit bid naturally by an opp isn't very compelling either. Heck if I did it enough times, I'd eventually find I bid and made an unreachable grand by opening 7N. In the meantime, I suspect most of my results would be less impressive.

[mfa1010]

I would interpret 4♣ as a cuebid for spades. Maybe a delicate COG between the majors could be nice, but I don't play that in such situations.

Presumably I could have bid 2♠ natural over 2♦ with a positive hand without showing a monster. So I would cuebid 4♦ surely after 4♣. I have 6 spades and an ace, nothing to be ashamed of, and we can still rest in 4♠.

It follows that I think I have underbid as it is. I would try 6♦ now.

[dake50]

I would already have gotten my spades into this auction with 2S over 2D.
Let partner get slammy or not. After that start, I'm well placed:
not enough to wait to show, but length in my bid suit.
I have DA, show that. Done.

[MrAce]

Here is the full deal

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Our S bid 5♠ and this ended the auction for +1 losing 11 imps.


O.T reached slam after strong 1♣ and uncontested auction.

[mikeh]

I'm not a huge fan of keycard but I have no idea why North didn't haul out 4N at some point.

If opener is driving to the 5 level anyway, why not 4N over 3♠? Wtf was he expecting to learn by his multiple cuebidding approach? It's not that I think that moving over 4♠ was 100% clear, but more that, if you are planning to do it, why bother cue-bidding then or earlier. Btw, I don't think that 4♣ then 4N should be keycard, but that 4N over 3♠ is. However, I suspect that at least 98% of bridgeplayers would take it as keycard in both sequences.

Note that with AKQ AKQxx x K10xx, I'd be ok with cuebidding because my hearts aren't good enough for me to count them as 5 winners. However, I have AKQJx, and in my book that is 5 tricks sufficiently often that I am going to count them as 5 tricks. That gives me 10+ winners already, plus the club K is 90% on the auction and partner, bless him, made a gf call earlier and didn't do it based on major suit honours.

However, as is usually the case, slam was perfectly biddable without the use of Easley or any of his relatives so long as South overcame what is a common characteristic: he had a weak hand and failed to appreciate that, on the auction, it had grown up to warrant a try. I do think mfa was overly aggressive in making what seems like a grand slam try, via his suggested 6♦, but both he and I would have pushed the board, as would others.

[MrAce]

@ MikeH
I think MFA bid the way he did because, just like me, he believed starting with pass instead of 2♠ did show his weakness already, as oppose to other style which you suggested that only difference would be spade honors.

In that context, do you still think he overbid ?

About 4 NT, i would have taken it as keycards both after 3♠ and 4♣/ Did 3♠ neccessarilly promised 5+ ? S does not know that pd has AKQ spades and knows he is likely to hold 5+ spades.

mikeh, on 2013-December-21, 15:29, said:

......, bless him, made a gf call earlier and didn't do it based on major suit honours.

Yes, but South does not know that pd already knows this.

[mike777]

40 years ago it was viewed that nonexperts overused blackwood and experts did cuebidding and had delicate auction to slam.

Today it seems the forums under use blackwood in favor of cuebidding and delicate auctions that only one partner fully understands. Cuebids above game level seem to often have different meanings, in the same partnership. Often iT seems the modern versions of rkc may be more clear and helpful.

[mikeh]

MrAce, on 2013-December-21, 17:07, said:

@ MikeH
I think MFA bid the way he did because, just like me, he believed starting with pass instead of 2♠ did show his weakness already, as oppose to other style which you suggested that only difference would be spade honors.

I don't understand this.....I would have thought that the pass was the equivalent of a 2♦ positive response in a method using 2♥ as immediate negative....double would have been the immediate negative, and bids other than double would show a positive suit response as if rho had passed. I really don't see the point of parsing pass as gf but weak and bids as gf but good, without reference to suit quality. I just don't see the benefits compared to what I suggest

Quote

In that context, do you still think he overbid ?

About 4 NT, i would have taken it as keycards both after 3♠ and 4♣/ Did 3♠ neccessarilly promised 5+ ? S does not know that pd has AKQ spades and knows he is likely to hold 5+ spades.



Yes, but South does not know that pd already knows this.

I was discussing N's choices...he knows S has no major honours yet game forced. Also I am 100% sure that 3♠ promised 5+. I could elaborate but I'm pressed for time here.

[mikeh]

mike777, on 2013-December-21, 17:24, said:

40 years ago it was viewed that nonexperts overused blackwood and experts did cuebidding and had delicate auction to slam.

Today it seems the forums under use blackwood in favor of cuebidding and delicate auctions that only one partner fully understands. Cuebids above game level seem to often have different meanings, in the same partnership. Often iT seems the modern versions of rkc may be more clear and helpful.

I couldn't disagree with you more, in terms of 'forum' practices. We often see a huge overuse of keycard here. I can't remember the last time, prior to this thread, that we saw a cuebid to slam auction. Thus it is ironic that this time keycard made sense.

[MrAce]

mikeh, on 2013-December-21, 17:35, said:

I don't understand this.....I would have thought that the pass was the equivalent of a 2♦ positive response in a method using 2♥ as immediate negative....double would have been the immediate negative, and bids other than double would show a positive suit response as if rho had passed. I really don't see the point of parsing pass as gf but weak and bids as gf but good, without reference to suit quality. I just don't see the benefits compared to what I suggest

There is nothing to be not understood Mike. You are obviously playing it different than MFA and i do. We did not say what you play is wrong. You take DBL as negative response, MFA and i do take it as 2nd Neg (just like 2♣--2♥ convention). Any hand that is better than 2nd negative is GF vs a 2♣ opener, unless you are really stretching down your 2♣ openings. Thus, in competition, it is debatable whether to show how many honors your long suit has as oppose to whether you have actually a positive hand, not just better than 2nd negative hand. I may even be convinced what you play is better perhaps, but why are you assuming everyone plays responses to 2♣ related with honor holdings ?

[mfa1010]

Maybe north didn't blackwood because with 1KC opposite but only 5 spades and no extra useful honor, he would be dead in slam on a diamond lead. So it makes some sense for north to let south evaluate.

[dake50]

I guess I want to be in slam.
2D won't have CA for fear of scaring off a failing slam.