[patroclo]

Has someone a written document of this system ?

[PrecisionL]

The only reference is this interview:

http://neapolitanclu...-interview.html

[bluecalm]

I took a look at vugraph hands of which they are many now and it looks like standardish Italian system with weak NT mixed in some vulnerabilities.
So they open 5 card majors and 1D keeps changing but as of now I believe is 5+ (unless 4-4-4D-1). After 2/1 there is ton of relays, there is Gazilli with again relays to the end (similar as Bocchi played with Duboin I believe). Then they put the trouble hand 18-19bal in 2C gaining a step over Lauria-Versace's 2D but it's still over 1NT :-)
They hope GF hand don't come around often and they allocate 2D opening for that. 2H/2S are some novel preempts if not vul.
As to 1C opening they bid suits up the line: that is 1D is hearts, 1H is spades and 1S is diamonds while 1NT is rare but in general means 3334 or (233)5C Then as there is no 18-19 in 1C they are able to have all he usual multi reverses available and don't need to jump to 2NT with 18bal opposite possible bust.
If you have any particular question I can try to dig up the sequences but they change stuff often so dunno how the things are as of right now.
As to general style they open a lot of crap at 3level non-vul but are disciplined vul. They bid any game that possibly could be bid. They open 1M with 5M-3-3-2 15-17 and as other Italian pairs default to game if that hits any 8PC in partner's hand.

[esmerax]

Don't miss the Big Bang Theory Part II

http://neapolitanclu...rypart-two.html

[helene_t]

here is another interview:

http://newinbridge.c...s-vulnerability

[glen]

bluecalm, on 2014-January-23, 18:24, said:

I took a look at vugraph hands of which they are many now and it looks like standardish Italian system with weak NT mixed in some vulnerabilities ...

weak or mini, see:
madala-bocchi.pdf

[Gerben42]

I am surprised that although they have transfer responses to 1♣, they cannot manage to put 18-19 balanced hands into 1♣ so that those can be played on the 1-level opposite a bad hand.

Last time I checked, the auction 2♣ - Pass - 1NT was not allowed...

[PhilKing]

Gerben42, on 2014-March-01, 08:48, said:

I am surprised that although they have transfer responses to 1♣, they cannot manage to put 18-19 balanced hands into 1♣ so that those can be played on the 1-level opposite a bad hand.

Last time I checked, the auction 2♣ - Pass - 1NT was not allowed...

Amazingly, they could manage it - after all, they are not stupid. But they believe it is better not to.

[PrecisionL]

glen, on 2014-February-02, 21:07, said:

weak or mini, see:
madala-bocchi.pdf

I have looked at their convention card and it is very difficult to understand the responses to 2♣ and 2♦. Does anyone understand the back of their CC?

[chasetb]

Their CC has some REALLY bad formatting. It looks like the card they contributed still had some responses by Opener with 2♣ as 18-19 bal or 23+ . They used that when Vul in 2011, then moved all 23+ balanced hands into 2♦. Their 2011 notes say nothing on how they respond after these bids.

After 2♣ opening: (18-19 bal.)
2♦ = Xfer, 4+ ♥
2♥ = Xfer, 4+ ♠
2♠ = Puppet to 2NT, any hand that wants partner to play NT, or 4♠ - 5+ minor, GF
2NT = GF balanced, asks partner about minors (usually 11+ with tenaces, 6m in the picture)
3♣ = At least 5-4 Majors, I assume INV+
3♦ = 4-4 Majors, I assume INV+
3♥/3♠ = GF, short in that Major, one or both minors
4♣/4♦ = Slam try, has the OTHER minor

While I'm not 100% sure, I think the top lines to their 2♦ opener is what they use now, and the bottom lines was what they used to use. They played it completely differently in 2011, so this CC is all I have to deal with.

After 2♦ (23+ balanced or any GF)
2♥ = Relay
2♠ = any good 6+ card suit
2NT = ♣ + ♦
3♣ = ♣ + ♥
3♦ = ♣ + ♠
3♥ = ♦ + ♥
3♠ = ♦ + ♠
3NT = ♥ + ♠

[PrecisionL]

chasetb, on 2014-March-01, 13:17, said:

Their CC has some REALLY bad formatting. It looks like the card they contributed still had some responses by Opener with 2♣ as 18-19 bal or 23+ . They used that when Vul in 2011, then moved all 23+ balanced hands into 2♦. Their 2011 notes say nothing on how they respond after these bids.

[snip]

While I'm not 100% sure, I think the top lines to their 2♦ opener is what they use now, and the bottom lines was what they used to use. They played it completely differently in 2011, so this CC is all I have to deal with.

After 2♦ (23+ balanced or any GF)
2♥ = Relay
2♠ = any good 6+ card suit
2NT = ♣ + ♦
3♣ = ♣ + ♥
3♦ = ♣ + ♠
3♥ = ♦ + ♥
3♠ = ♦ + ♠
3NT = ♥ + ♠

Thank you. I thought the two suiters were shown by opener after the 2♥ relay ...

[chasetb]

PrecisionL, on 2014-March-01, 21:10, said:

Thank you. I thought the two suiters [over 2♦] were shown by opener after the 2♥ relay ...

Well, I don't think that it's opener for 3 reasons:
1.) Opener doesn't have to have a two-suiter -> it could be a single-suiter or balanced
2.) It's listed under Responses, and that should refer to Responder
3.) Under Rebids, it shows:
2♦-2♥; 2♠ = At least 1 Major
2♦-2♥; 2NT = Strong 1-suiter, some sort of ask
2♦-2NT; 3♣ = Clubs

Again, it's a total mess. I have decided to use archived Vugraph hands - you can see the hands here.

EDIT - 2♦-2♥; 2NT shows either any balanced hand or Strong 1-suiter. (2013 BB RR10 - 32) Then, -3♥(no 4M?)-3♠; 3NT.
The same sequence starts in 2013 European Champions Cup, Final A, segment 2 - 24 (... -3♣-3♠ = 5, maybe more).

2♣-2♦; 2♥-3♠; 3NT was 4 hearts and 10 HCP. (2013 BB RR5 - 16) It also has been with a good 6 HCP, opps doubled 3♠ and opener XX for 3-card support.
2♣-3♥; 3♠-3NT; 4♣-4♠ was a GF hand with 5 Spades, on a 5-3 fit. (2013 BB SF2 - 28)
2♣-2♥; 2♠-3NT, 4♠ was a rejected slam try, Dummy had 6 Spades and a nice 10 HCP. (2013 BB SF4 - 24)
2♣-2♠; 2NT-3♠; 3NT showed 0-1 ♠, 1 or both minors. (2013 BB RR8 - 30)

[PrecisionL]

chasetb said:

1393788697[/url]' post='781095']
Well, I don't think that it's opener for 3 reasons:
1.) Opener doesn't have to have a two-suiter -> it could be a single-suiter or balanced
2.) It's listed under Responses, and that should refer to Responder
3.) Under Rebids, it shows:
2♦-2♥; 2♠ = At least 1 Major
2♦-2♥; 2NT = Strong 1-suiter, some sort of ask
2♦-2NT; 3♣ = Clubs

Again, it's a total mess. I have decided to use archived Vugraph hands - you can see the hands here.

EDIT - 2♦-2♥; 2NT shows either any balanced hand or Strong 1-suiter. (2013 BB RR10 - 32) Then, -3♥(no 4M?)-3♠; 3NT.
The same sequence starts in 2013 European Champions Cup, Final A, segment 2 - 24 (... -3♣-3♠ = 5, maybe more).

2♣-2♦; 2♥-3♠; 3NT was 4 hearts and 10 HCP. (2013 BB RR5 - 16) It also has been with a good 6 HCP, opps doubled 3♠ and opener XX for 3-card support.
2♣-3♥; 3♠-3NT; 4♣-4♠ was a GF hand with 5 Spades, on a 5-3 fit. (2013 BB SF2 - 28)
2♣-2♥; 2♠-3NT, 4♠ was a rejected slam try, Dummy had 6 Spades and a nice 10 HCP. (2013 BB SF4 - 24)
2♣-2♠; 2NT-3♠; 3NT showed 0-1 ♠, 1 or both minors. (2013 BB RR8 - 30)

Thank you very much for your efforts!

[WGF_Flame]

strong club is outdated he says...

[falcon111]

I am not sure about detailed developments of 2♦ opening (as per BM CC), but could have worked in the following way :

2♦ 2♥ (Relay)
2♠= Either 5+♥/♠ plus 4+unspecfied card on the side or 6+♥/♠ mono suiter .
2NT= Bal 23 + --> system on
3♣=5+♣plus 4+unspecfied card on the side
3♦= 6+♣/♦
3♥=5+♦plus 4+♣
3♠=5+♦plus 4+♥
3NT=5+♦plus 4+♠
4♣=5+♦plus 4+♠stronger .

After :
2♦ 2♥ (Relay)
2♠ 2NT(RELAY)
3♣= 5+♥plus 4+unspecfied card on the side --> 3♦(relay ) for 4+unspecfied card on the side whereas 3♥ sets ♥ and 4x cue bid in favor of hearts and 4♥is retained as Sign-off .
3♦=6+♥/♠ mono suiter ---> 3♥(relay)---> 3♠=6+♠ & 3NT=6+♥
3♥=5+♠& 4+♣--->3♠sets ♠& 4♣sets ♣
3♠=5+♠&4+♦-->4♣sets ♠& 4♦sets ♦(better than direct 4♠/5♦Sign off ?)
3NT=5+♠& 4+♥-->4♣sets ♥& 4♦sets ♠(better than direct 4♥/4♠Sign off ?)
4♣=5+♠& 4+♥stronger++?

[chasetb]

These are from the 2012 European Championships. 2♣ was always 18-19 balanced, but could include any 23+ balanced when NV. All 3 of these hands were (17)18-19 however.
2♣-2♦ ; 2♥-3♣ GF, 5(or more?) ; 3♥, cuebid to 4♥ (RR4 - 19)
2♣-2♦ ; 2♥-3♣, 3♦ only 2; 3♥-3NT (RR14 - 9)
2♣-2♥; 2♠-3♣ GF, 5(or more?) ; 4♠ with 3-card support, 6 ctrls, 17 HCP (Italian Club 2013, Final 3/5 - 23)

EDIT - Thanks to PrecisionL, I found some hidden text on their 2013 WBF CC. What I found was different from what he has:
2♦ - 2NT; 3♣ = Clubs min / 3♦ = Diamonds min / 3♥ = Clubs MAX / 3♠ = Diamonds MAX

I also found that they do indeed play the two-suiters over 2♦, starting at 2NT.

[falcon111]

chasetb, on 2014-March-03, 23:52, said:

These are from the 2012 European Championships. 2♣ was always 18-19 balanced, but could include any 23+ balanced when NV. All 3 of these hands were (17)18-19 however.
2♣-2♦ ; 2♥-3♣ GF, 5(or more?) ; 3♥, cuebid to 4♥ (RR4 - 19)
2♣-2♦ ; 2♥-3♣, 3♦ only 2; 3♥-3NT (RR14 - 9)
2♣-2♥; 2♠-3♣ GF, 5(or more?) ; 4♠ with 3-card support, 6 ctrls, 17 HCP (Italian Club 2013, Final 3/5 - 23)

EDIT - Thanks to PrecisionL, I found some hidden text on their 2013 WBF CC. What I found was different from what he has:
2♦ - 2NT; 3♣ = Clubs min / 3♦ = Diamonds min / 3♥ = Clubs MAX / 3♠ = Diamonds MAX

I also found that they do indeed play the two-suiters over 2♦, starting at 2NT.

I think that PrecisionL has posted the correct document because in 2011 BM CC they used to play 2♦=4♠+5+minor(non-vul).
Their 2011 CC may have a detailed discussion in support of the following :

OPENING 2♦ (4♠5+minor)(non vul)[2011 CC ]

2♦ 2♥ = non forcing
2♠ = to play
2NT = relay positive
3♣ = pass or correct
3♦ = 5+♥ forcing game
3♥ = 6+♥ limit
3♠ = barrage
3NT = to play
4♣ = pass or correct
4♦ = to play(pd may bid 5)
4♥/♠= to play
4NT = bid your minor
5♣/♦= to play
Responses were [2011 -- 2♦=4♠+5+m (non-vul)]
2♦ 2♥
2♠ = 4♠ good and max, 1♥ →2nt nat, 3♣ pass or correct
2NT = supermax with 1♥→3♣ pass or correct
3♣ = 6+♣ good suit
3♦ = 6+♦ good suit
3♥ = 3♥ non minimum


2♦ 2NT
3♣ =minimum 5+♣→3♠ limit, other F.G
3♦=minimum 5+♦→3♠ limit other F.G
3♥=max 5+♣→F.G
3♠=max5+♦ →F.G

2♦ 3♦
3♥=5+♣ max, 1♥
3♠=5+♦ max, 1♥
3NT= 3♥ non minimum
4♣/♦=2 cards in ♥ and 5 + cards in the bidding minor
4♥=3♥ minimum

But most probably 2013 CC was not updated or formatted correctly if so lot of features wouldn't have been there (which they used earlier in 2011 ).

[PrecisionL]

Finally got their book from Rome: IL SISTEMA by Bocchi-Duboin, 2010

Opening of 2♣: 18-19 Balanced, no 5 major, no singleton, only 1 doubleton.

pass = Weak with long clubs (Note 5/2/14: No provision for playing in 3♦ if weak)
2♦ = Transfer with 4+♥
2♥ = Transfer with 4+♠
2♠ = Transfer to 2NT:

(1) To Play, or raise to 3NT, or

(2) 4♠ & 5+♣/♦, or

(3) 5♣ & 5♦ {Edited: 8/17/14)

2NT = Balanced without 4♠ or 4♥, Slam Interest

3♣ 4-cd minor (3♦ asks) {Edited 8/17/14}

3♦ 5-cd minor (3♥ asks) {Edited 8/17/14}

3♥ 3=2=4=4 {Edited 8/17/14]

3♠ 2=3=4=4 {Edited 8/17/14}

3NT No Minor {Edited 8/17/14}

3♣ = 5-4 Majors, G.F.

3♦ No 4M, asks for 5M {Edited 8/17/14}

3♥ 5♠ & 4♥ {Edited 8/17/14]

3♠ 5♥ & 4♠ {Edited 8/17/14}

3NT 5♠ & 5♥, No slam interest {Edited 8/17/14}

4♣/4♦ 5♠ & 5♥ slammish {Edited 8/17/14}

4♥ Asking for shortness {Added 8/17/14}

3M 4-cd fit {Edited 8/17/14}

3♦ = 4-4 Majors, or (4-1)=4=4

3♥ = 3=1=(5-4), or 2=1=(6-4)

3♠ = 1=3=(5-4), or 1=2=(6-4)

3NT

4♣ = 6+ ♦ with Slam Interest

4♦ = 6+♣ with Slam Interest

NOTE (5/2/14): See reference for non-transfer responses @ 2-level to 2♣ 18-20 balanced.

http://www.montrealr...ontreal/2C.html

[PrecisionL]

Finally got their book from Rome: IL SISTEMA by Bocchi-Duboin, 2010:2♦ Opening Bid: (1) Balanced 23+ (80% are balanced) - G.F., or

(2) Game Force Unbalanced.

Responses to 2♦:

2♥ Without any of the hands following, or asking about the hand opened

2♠ 5+♥: QJxxxx & 6+ hcp

2NT 5+♠: QJxxx & 6+ hcp

3♣ 6+♦: KQxxxx & 6+ hcp (Edited 8/16/14)

3♦ 6+♣ KQxxxx & 6+ hcp (Edited 8/16/14)

3♥ 7+♠ with only 1 honor Q or better (Edited 8/16/14)

3♠ 7+♥ with only 1 honor Q or better (Edited 8/16/14)

2♦ - 2♥ -

2♠ 5+♠, or 4+♠ semi-balanced with a 5-cd minor; 2NT = Relay for 2nd suit

2NT 23+ Balanced without 5-cd major

3♣ Natural, or bicolor ♥ & ♣, 3♦ asks (relay?)(Edited 8/16/14)

3♦ bicolor ♥ & ♦ (Edited 8/16/14)

3♥ 6+♥ semi-balanced (Edited 8/16/14)

3♠ 5+♥ with 4♠ (Edited 8/16/14)

3NT 6+♦ (Edited 8/16/14)

4♣ 5+♣ with 5+♦ slam interest (Edited 8/16/14)

4♦ 6+♦ with slam interest (Edited 8/16/14)

2♦ - 2♥ - 2♠ - 2NT (Asking Distribution with 0-3♠):

3♣ bicolor ♣ + ♠: cheapestbid = relay3♦ bicolor ♦ + ♠3♥ 5+♠ with 4+♥ on/about which/whom 4♣ fix/focus tromps ♥ e 4♦ focus atout ♠3♠ 6+♠ FM or better3NT 9 tricks with 5+♠

2♦ - 2♥ - 3♣ - 3♦:

3♥ monocolor a ♣

3♠ 5+♣ with 4+♠

3NT 5+♠ with 4+♣

4♣ 5+♠ with 4+♣ da slam

2♦ - 2♠ = 5+♥

2NT Interrgativo3♣ Natural bicolor: ♣ & ♠3♦ bicolor ♦ & ♥3♥ Minors3♠ 6+♠ FM3NT 6+♦, N.F.4♣ Minors & slam interest4♦ 6+♦ di slam

2♦ - 2♠ - 2NT

3♣ = 5+♥

3♦ = 1-suited in ♥s

3♥ = 5+♥ &4+♣, no slam interest

3♠ = 5+♥ & 4+♦, no slam interest

3NT = 5+♥ & 4+♠, no slam interest

2♦ - 2♠ - 3♣ - 3♦

3♥ = 1-suited in ♣

3♠ = 5+♣ & 4+♠

3NT = 5+♠ & 4+♣

4♣ = 5+♠ & 4+♣, da slam

2♦ - 2NT = 5+♠ (Edited8/16/14)

3♣ Asking 3♦ 5+♥ + 4♣/♦, 3♥ = Relay3♥ 6+♥3♠ 5+♣ & 5[ diamonds]3NT 6+♣ or 6+♦4♣ 6+♣, slam interest4♦ 6+♦, slam interest

2♦ - 2NT - 3♣ (Edited 8/16/14)

3♦ 5+♠3♥ 5+♠ & 4♣

3♠ 5+♠ & 4♦

3NT 5+♠ & 4♥4♣ 5+♠ & 4♥ with slam interest

2♦ - 3♣ = 6+♦ (Edited 8/16/14)

3♦ Relay3♥ 5+♥3♠ 5+ ♠3NT Natural4♣ 6+♣4♦ = RKC: 0-4 / 1-3 / 2 / 2 + Q of trumps

2♦ - 3♦ = 6+♣ (Edited 8/16/14)

3♥ 5+♥3♠ 5+♠3NT 6+♦, N.F.4♣ RKC for ♣4♦ 6+♦, slam interest

To be completed with descriptions of above ........

DONE 8/16/14

Wow! Lots of memory work for very rare auctions!

I won't be using these 2♦ follow-ons approach in any of my partnerships

However, I do like their 2♣ sequences!

NOTE: Dan Neill has 42 pages of notes available: www.bridgewithdan.com (Added 8/17/14)

[PrecisionL]

patroclo, on 2014-January-21, 07:03, said:

Has someone a written document of this system ?

Yes, Dan Neill has 42 pages of notes translated from the Italian.

My link