[Cascade]

Playing Precision

Favourable

♠ 1054
♥ J8654
♦ KJ76
♣ 9


1♣* Pass 1♦* 2♣
Pass Pass ?

What action do you take?

What other actions do you seriously consider taking?

[mr1303]

I think double is correct, but 2H is an option.

Pass is not an option.

[gwnn]

I like 2H more than X. A good guideline for me has been "don't double with with more than 1 card disparity between your major suits." (unless very strong or you already promised something in your longer major or ....)

Edited to make mathematical sense

[helene_t]

Funny, we had this exact situation in the Scheveningen butler a few years ago. I was opener and held seven clubs. Partner held a hand very similar to yours. She passed. Five down was a decent result although it was all vul. Apparently opps had a convention mixup.

[vigfus]

1 club opening bid can be 16-17 balanced. Partners hand can easily be that.
I will never PASS with my holding.

[nige1]

 Cascade, on 2014-January-06, 01:56, said:

Playing Precision Favourable ♠ 10 5 4 ♥ J 8 6 5 4 ♦ K J 7 6 ♣ 9
1♣* (Pass) 1♦* (2♣)
Pass (Pass) ?
What action do you take? What other actions do you seriously consider taking?

IMO 2♥ = 10, Double = 8, Pass = 5. Pass might work but it's not an option that I would consider. The choice between the other two depends on agreements. A tank by partner would suggest a double but, for many, double would normally show a more balanced hand with less suit-length disparity.

[campboy]

The raw numbers from the second poll are a little misleading: on closer examination a few people did not include the option they chose as one they seriously considered. So at the moment it is really 14/14 for double and 13/14 for 2♥.

[Cascade]

 campboy, on 2014-January-06, 07:19, said:

The raw numbers from the second poll are a little misleading: on closer examination a few people did not include the option they chose as one they seriously considered. So at the moment it is really 14/14 for double and 13/14 for 2♥.

Yeah I was confused too. But it maybe hard to reconstruct as some may have and some may not. Unless this public poll feature can be used but I have never been able to see how people voted.

[Cascade]

 nige1, on 2014-January-06, 05:41, said:

IMO 2♥ = 10, Double = 8, Pass = 5. Pass might work but it's not an option that I would consider. The choice between the other two depends on agreements. A tank by partner would suggest a double but, for many, double would normally show a more balanced hand with less suit-length disparity.

Would a tank really suggest double? I wasn't sure.

Let me think some more ...

I think a tank suggests partner had some action in mind, or maybe like in Helene's example was surprised at the 2♣ call.

That action could have been

1. bidding a suit, but I think most 16 point hands with a five card suit would bid their suit. Perhaps there are some hands with bad suits and minimum that would choose not to bid.

2. bidding 2NT, which would show a lot of points so partner is just shy of this. This one certainly suggests bidding or doubling over pass but I am not sure about doubling over 2♥. There is one advantage I can think of for doubling over 2♥ the increased flexibility might allow partner to sometimes pass, on the other hand a 2♥ bid has the advantage that if there is subsequent bidding you might get a convenient second bid and therefore be able to describe your hand better.

3. doubling. Here the most likely reasons for not taking action are minimum and offshape. Again its not clear to me that double would be suggested. The only advantage seems to be that occasionally partner will pass. But bidding 2♥ retains its advantages too.

Of course if there has been a misunderstanding and the opponents dont have this suit then in a way double is suggested and you might then catch the opponents in another suit or in an UI situation. But even then it is not free to double as some auctions it will be subsequently awkward to find your 5=3 heart fit.

Overall, maybe you are right, but I don't think there is much in it.

[Cascade]

 helene_t, on 2014-January-06, 03:53, said:

Funny, we had this exact situation in the Scheveningen butler a few years ago. I was opener and held seven clubs. Partner held a hand very similar to yours. She passed. Five down was a decent result although it was all vul. Apparently opps had a convention mixup.

Don't you approve of your partner's pass? I don't see any pass vote.

[campboy]

 Cascade, on 2014-January-06, 12:22, said:

Yeah I was confused too. But it maybe hard to reconstruct as some may have and some may not. Unless this public poll feature can be used but I have never been able to see how people voted.

I was using the publicness -- you should be able to click on "view" above each bar. It works for me in Chrome, anyway. So far (of 23 people) everyone except Trinidad (who doubled) seriously considered whichever option they didn't take.

[paulg]

 Cascade, on 2014-January-06, 12:42, said:

Would a tank really suggest double? I wasn't sure.

I thought a tank would suggest doubling over two hearts. This was because the hands I thought partner might tank with AND then pass would be those with long clubs where he was surprised at the overcall or strong hands with a good club holding and values for two notrump but with extreme shortness in one major. Double is likely to work better than two hearts in both these situations.

Although I voted for double I thought two hearts was a very close second. If partner did tank, then I would think two hearts is clear.

[aguahombre]

Would I have considered PASS or Double if the poll didn't put them in front of me to consider?

Probably not. I would just assume Pard has a balanced strong NT and bid my 5-bagger to play.

Am I saying that the poll provides choices I wouldn't consider otherwise, and I shouldn't choose from this UI? Pretty much. They wouldn't even be L.A.'s to me if not suggested by the poll (or by Pard's tank).

[Cascade]

 aguahombre, on 2014-January-06, 19:06, said:

Would I have considered PASS or Double if the poll didn't put them in front of me to consider?

Probably not. I would just assume Pard has a balanced strong NT and bid my 5-bagger to play.

Am I saying that the poll provides choices I wouldn't consider otherwise, and I shouldn't choose from this UI? Pretty much. They wouldn't even be L.A.'s to me if not suggested by the poll (or by Pard's tank).

This is very interesting. Not least because a different action than 2♥ was chosen at the table. And because you are so certain.

I thought there might be some passes with a bad suit and close to the minimum for the range of hands that would want to act. Well I have got Helene's partner from another hand.

I did certainly think that 2♥ was the normal action.

As it happened double led to 2♠ so they played an inferior 4=3 spade fit when they had available a heart fit and did not get to game which might make - and many did. I am pretty sure we would beat 4♥, it was fairly routine provided I led my stiff ace of diamonds , partner would have given me obvious switch showing a high club honour and i could underlead for a diamond ruff and there was still a losing spade finesse to take. So we did ok on the board but could have done better.

Nothing further happened with the hand. I am unsure whether double was suggested over 2♥ but maybe Nigel is right.

The hand may come up in a discussion tomorrow so I was just getting some opinions from the learned lot here.

[aguahombre]

Well, being certain doesn't make me right. But it seems an easy analogous situation to Partner having a 16+ balanced hand, since she showed 16+ and then didn't bid the second time.

If she had opened a big 1NT, I would have transfered to hearts. If they had overcalled 2C, I would want to compete by showing my 5 hearts. Nothing from this auction which I now know that is authorized changes that. Perhaps, the responder read something which wasn't there from his partner's B.I.T. and attempted to use it but failed. Still a violation, but without the success he hoped for.

[paulg]

 Cascade, on 2014-January-06, 21:17, said:

I thought there might be some passes with a bad suit and close to the minimum for the range of hands that would want to act.

I thought it was a maximum for my one diamond bid, given the shortage in their suit

[Trinidad]

 campboy, on 2014-January-06, 15:46, said:

I was using the publicness -- you should be able to click on "view" above each bar. It works for me in Chrome, anyway. So far (of 23 people) everyone except Trinidad (who doubled) seriously considered whichever option they didn't take.

I did consider 2♥, but not seriously.

My reasoning:
I have three suits, not merely one
I want partner to declare

One thing that influences my decision is the question whether I had an immediate 2♥ bid (or other) available to show 5-7 with 6 hearts. (I don't in my strong club system, so I look at this problem from the perspective that I could have an eight card heart suit.) If I do have that, then partner will know that I have exactly 5 when I bid 2♥ and 2♥ becomes more attractive.

I assumed that I don't have an immediate 2♥ bid available. This means that when I bid 2♥ now partner will play me for 6 hearts, or 5 hearts in a hand that is not suited for a takeout double. I don't have 6 hearts and my hand is well suited for a takeout double. That means that 2♥ is not an option for me.

Rik

[helene_t]

 Cascade, on 2014-January-06, 12:44, said:

Don't you approve of your partner's pass? I don't see any pass vote.

Well she might have felt from her LHO's manners that he didn't approve of his partner's failure to alert. Absent any EI I would not consider pass.

[barmar]

 Cascade, on 2014-January-06, 12:22, said:

Yeah I was confused too. But it maybe hard to reconstruct as some may have and some may not. Unless this public poll feature can be used but I have never been able to see how people voted.

I just deleted my vote and revoted, including the action I chose with the considered. I suggest everyone else do this now, and then we'll soon get a consistent result.

I've also edited the poll to make it clear that this is desired.

[barmar]

 aguahombre, on 2014-January-06, 19:06, said:

Would I have considered PASS or Double if the poll didn't put them in front of me to consider?

Probably not. I would just assume Pard has a balanced strong NT and bid my 5-bagger to play.

Am I saying that the poll provides choices I wouldn't consider otherwise, and I shouldn't choose from this UI? Pretty much. They wouldn't even be L.A.'s to me if not suggested by the poll (or by Pard's tank).

Any time I see shortness in the opponent's suit I consider a takeout double. Then I look closer at the rest of my hand to see whether there's a more descriptive bid. In this case, 2♥ seems better, so I choose it.