[mgoetze]

Time to improve my 2NT bidding by throwing out that awful Puppet Stayman and replacing it with the vastly superior Muppet Stayman. (For those who don't know, Muppet switches the 3♥ and 3NT responses to Puppet Stayman.)

I still want to bid Stayman with 5m4M hands of course, to find those lovely 4-4 fits. This raises the question: If the bidding goes 2NT-3♣-3NT, showing that opener has 5 hearts, how do I (a) make a slam try in hearts and (b) show a hand with a 5-card minor and 4 spades?

On the other hand, if it goes 2NT-3♣-3♥ denying a 4-card major, I now have

(a) 2NT-3♣-3♥-4♣ and
(b) 2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠-3NT-4♣

Which I can surely use to my advantage somehow, right? How would you make use of these two sequences? (Of course, instead of having them both show clubs I could also use (a) for 5-5 majors hands.)

[neilkaz]

mgoetze, on 2015-July-20, 18:55, said:

Time to improve my 2NT bidding by throwing out that awful Puppet Stayman and replacing it with the vastly superior Muppet Stayman. (For those who don't know, Muppet switches the 3♥ and 3NT responses to Puppet Stayman.)

I still want to bid Stayman with 5m4M hands of course, to find those lovely 4-4 fits. This raises the question: If the bidding goes 2NT-3♣-3NT, showing that opener has 5 hearts, how do I (a) make a slam try in hearts and (b) show a hand with a 5-card minor and 4 spades?

On the other hand, if it goes 2NT-3♣-3♥ denying a 4-card major, I now have

(a) 2NT-3♣-3♥-4♣ and
(b) 2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠-3NT-4♣

Which I can surely use to my advantage somehow, right? How would you make use of these two sequences? (Of course, instead of having them both show clubs I could also use (a) for 5-5 majors hands.)

I'm interested in this thread also.

I'll also add that it is good to have a way to try for minor suits slams after opening 2NT...ie methods that use 3♠ to transfer to 3NT and then continue, but can still bail out at 4NT or 5m.

[Trick13]

Have you considered this: ROMEX Stayman

[helene_t]

After 3nt, probably 4d is a transfer to hearts. The simplest agreement is that all heart slam tries go through this while 4c shows diamonds and 4h shows clubs. This means that you can't make a mild slam try in hearts. Maybe this is bad and it would be better to play:
4c slamish w hearts
4d nonslamish w hearts OR clubs+spades
4h diamonds+spades

[Mbodell]

If opener has 5 hearts do you really want to explore a 5m-3m fit? I could see 6m4♠ I guess. And I guess maybe you were something like 3145 or the like looking for the 5-3 spade fit. So maybe it is worthwhile after all.

I would think over 3nt that one bid (say 4♦) is general last train slam try for hearts, while the other bid (4♣ in this proposal) shows an attempted slam in one of the two minors.

Over 4♣ responder could bid 4♦ to accept the slam try in clubs and 4♥ to reject clubs but accept diamonds (over this 4nt is to play and other bids are key card responses for diamonds), and 4nt to reject either. Over 2nt-3♣-3nt-4♣-4♦ then if the responder had diamonds, not clubs, they could bid 4♥, if they had clubs all along they could answer keycards (spades, nt, clubs, diamonds, hope 2+Q is not too high). If the auction goes 2nt-3♣-3nt-4♣-4♦-4♥ (so 2nt;puppet;5H;minor slam try, 4♠ implied;I'd accept clubs; I had diamonds) now if you reject diamonds you can bid 4nt to play. If you accept diamonds you can give key card answers with spades, clubs, diamonds, hearts, and again hope 2+Q does not take you too far.

I'm certainly not sure this is ideal, and seems very low probability of coming up, but does seem to work overall. You make the minor slam tries, that try puppet and get hearts answer, slightly worse to preserve the general heart slam try. If you have both minors available for minors that would be better.

[karlson]

I'm sure it's not optimal, but after 2n-3n I've always played 4♦ as a transfer to 4♥ and 4♥ as 5+♦. It is unfortunate to have no slam try in hearts below game. Perhaps you could play 4♠ as showing clubs here if that's important to you.

As for the other sequences, is this on the assumption that you've already swapped the natural meanings of 3♠ and 3n after 2n-3♣-3♥? (otherwise 3♠ needs to show 5♠, that's the whole point of muppet). In that case, I'd just use them to distinguish between various types of club hands (5 vs 6 perhaps?). I'm happy to bid 2n-4♣ with 5-5 majors hands.

[mgoetze]

karlson, on 2015-July-21, 01:27, said:

As for the other sequences, is this on the assumption that you've already swapped the natural meanings of 3♠ and 3n after 2n-3♣-3♥? (otherwise 3♠ needs to show 5♠, that's the whole point of muppet). In that case, I'd just use them to distinguish between various types of club hands (5 vs 6 perhaps?). I'm happy to bid 2n-4♣ with 5-5 majors hands.

Yes, that's right, I'm planning to have 2NT-3♣-3♥-3NT show 5 spades. 2NT-4♣ will, I think, not be available, but it's possible to just bid the 5-5 hands 2NT-3♥-3♠-4♥.

[jallerton]

mgoetze, on 2015-July-21, 07:09, said:

Yes, that's right, I'm planning to have 2NT-3♣-3♥-3NT show 5 spades. 2NT-4♣ will, I think, not be available, but it's possible to just bid the 5-5 hands 2NT-3♥-3♠-4♥.

I think it's better to play 3♠ and 3NT as natural over 3♥. Most of the time when Opener has denied a 4-card major Responder just wants to play in 3NT, so it's silly to give the opponents the chance to double a 3♠ Puppet when you've already told them that Opener won't be sending it back. Far more important than the occasional 'rightsiding' of a 3-5 spade fit.

[antonylee]

Romex Stayman works reasonably fine, although I used to play something slightly different that the version posted by Trick13.

2N-3C...
...3D: 2-3H, 2-4S
...3H: 4-5H
...3S: 5S
...3N: 44Ms

2N-3C; 3D...
... 3H: 4S
... 3S: puppet to 3N (at least here opener could still be XX'ing it...), signoff
... 3N: 5S=4N, nf

2N-3C; 3H...
... 3S: how many hearts? (3N=4, higher ad lib.=5), possibly some slam hands
... 3N: to play

3N-3C; 3S...
... standard.

together with

2N-3D; 3H...
... 3S: how many hearts? (3N=2, higher ad lib.=3+)
... 3N: 4S=5H

and whatever scheme you like for single and two-suited minors (I like the simple and efficient 3S=C or C+D, 4C=D).

In other words, after either player bids 3D, the 3S and 3N bids are swapped, so it's not too hard on the memory side.

There's quite a lot of room to squeeze in 4M6m slam hands although to be honest I forgot all of it :-)

[mgoetze]

It's really one of the worst things about this forum, I ask about strong 2♣ openings without double negative answers, and everyone tells me how great double negative answers are; I ask about Muppet Stayman followups and people tell me how great Romex Stayman is; and $deity help you if you ask how to bid something in Acol, you are guaranteed to get a dozen answers telling you how to do it in 2/1.

[broze]

jallerton, on 2015-July-21, 16:39, said:

I think it's better to play 3♠ and 3NT as natural over 3♥. Most of the time when Opener has denied a 4-card major Responder just wants to play in 3NT, so it's silly to give the opponents the chance to double a 3♠ Puppet when you've already told them that Opener won't be sending it back. Far more important than the occasional 'rightsiding' of a 3-5 spade fit.

But you can gain a lot of system by having 3S as a relay so there is another upside. Agree that the leakage may outweigh this.

[jallerton]

broze, on 2015-July-21, 17:56, said:

But you can gain a lot of system by having 3S as a relay so there is another upside. Agree that the leakage may outweigh this.

Can you? After 2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠[natural]-3NT, I play Responder's bids as slam interest with 5(+)♠,4(+)♥.

If you play 2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠ as a puppet to 3NT, you still need a way to bid the slam interest hands with 5/4+ in the majors.

[Kungsgeten]

I think this is what the italians do:

2NT-3C; 3NT---
4C = Slam try in hearts
4D = Puppet to 4H, sign off or super strong with heart support
4H = Slam try in clubs
4S = Slam try in diamonds

3NT-3C; 3H---
3S = Puppet to 3NT, then:
..Pass = To play 3NT
..4CD = Slam try, four cards in the other minor
..4HS = Slam try, 5+ cards in corresponding minor
..4N = 4-4 minors, slam try
3N = 5S and 4H, not slam try
4C = 5-5 majors, choice of games or very strong
4D = 6S and 4H
4H = 5404 slam try
4S = 5440 slam try
4N = 5S and 4H, quant
5m = To play
5N = 5S and 4H, forcing

[FrancesHinden]

jallerton, on 2015-July-22, 15:43, said:

Can you? After 2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠[natural]-3NT, I play Responder's bids as slam interest with 5(+)♠,4(+)♥.

If you play 2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠ as a puppet to 3NT, you still need a way to bid the slam interest hands with 5/4+ in the majors.

2NT-3♣-3♥-
...4♣ = 4 spades, 5 hearts slam try (+)
...4♦ = 5 spades, 4 hearts slam try (+)
...4♥ = 5-5 majors slam try
...4♠ = 5-5 majors slam force

2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠-3NT-
4m = 4 cards, slam try
4♥ = 5-5 majors weak

But what about the 4M5m hands? Ah well, I have a different auction for them which doesn't start with 3♣. All the parts of the 2NT system are inter-related
I also have no problem with the 3C-3NT auctions, because I can't have a slam try with a 5-card minor, and opener can't really have a 4-card minor (if he does, he is very slam-unsuitable for the minor and we may as well play in NT)

[Zelandakh]

mgoetze, on 2015-July-20, 18:55, said:

Time to improve my 2NT bidding by throwing out that awful Puppet Stayman and replacing it with the vastly superior Muppet Stayman.

Why is it you think Muppet is superior to the other Puppet schemes that handle 5♠4♥ hands? An example is the scheme where 3♦ shows 3+ spades and/or 4+ hearts. There are some advantages for Muppet over this method but also disadvantages. I certainly would not describe it as "awful"!

mgoetze, on 2015-July-20, 18:55, said:

I still want to bid Stayman with 5m4M hands of course, to find those lovely 4-4 fits. This raises the question: If the bidding goes 2NT-3♣-3NT, showing that opener has 5 hearts, how do I (a) make a slam try in hearts and (b) show a hand with a 5-card minor and 4 spades?

It seems clear that 4♦ should be a puppet here. So if we want a slam try that can only be 4♣. That would leave 4M as slam tries with the corresponding 5 card minor. Since there is no space for Baron here, I think it is important to pair this with an immediate 4♠ response to cover those hands.

mgoetze, on 2015-July-20, 18:55, said:

On the other hand, if it goes 2NT-3♣-3♥ denying a 4-card major, I now have

(a) 2NT-3♣-3♥-4♣ and
(b) 2NT-3♣-3♥-3♠-3NT-4♣

Which I can surely use to my advantage somehow, right? How would you make use of these two sequences? (Of course, instead of having them both show clubs I could also use (a) for 5-5 majors hands.)

Here you have so much space that there is a lot of flexibility. One option would be to use 3♠ as Baron and the direct 4m to show a 5 card suit with 4♥ as both majors. That works just fine but see the second paragraph. Are the Baron hands still live at this point? This is always the problem when our convention gives us too much space for one auction and not enough for the other.

What else can we do? Well another logical approach would be transfers, so 3♠ shows clubs, 4♣ diamonds. Are we covering 5M-4oM hands here? If so then 4♦/4♥ would need to cover those and the 5-5 major hands would need to go into 3♠. If not then 4♦/4♥ can be the 5-5s and 3♠ can stay pure. So for example (with 5-4s included):-

3♠ = puppet to 3NT, then 4♣ = 5 clubs; 4♦ = 5-5 majors; 4♥ = 5-5 majors, slam try
3NT = 5 spades
4♣ = 5+ diamonds
4♦ = 5♥4♠, slam try
4♥ = 5♠4♥, slam try

As has already been pointed out though, it might be better just to play natural here.

At the end of the day it is very difficult to look at one aspect of the system without seeing the rest of it. NT structures in particular fit together very precisely so you might need to readjust some things to get the most from Muppet. Or you might find that one of the alternative version of Puppet actually fits to your system better, even if you consider Muppet superior in isolation.

[mgoetze]

Zelandakh, on 2015-August-16, 05:58, said:

Why is it you think Muppet is superior to the other Puppet schemes that handle 5♠4♥ hands? An example is the scheme where 3♦ shows 3+ spades and/or 4+ hearts. There are some advantages for Muppet over this method but also disadvantages. I certainly would not describe it as "awful"!

Really Zel I've recently had the impression that we speak two different languages. When I wrote "Puppet Stayman", I did, in fact, mean "Puppet Stayman" and not "some random method similar to Puppet Stayman". The way we handled 5♠4♥ hands previously was to respond 3♠ directly to 2NT (well for a few weeks our agreement was to respond 3NT with these hands and have 3♠ puppet to 3NT but in any case they were not in 3♣).

I'm also not entirely sure what you mean by a "Baron hand". If you're asking whether I have some special gadget beside Muppet Stayman to deal with 4441 hands, the answer is no.

[Zelandakh]

OK, well Puppet Stayman has a lot of different flavours and the version where 3♦ promises a 4 card major is only one of them. There is no reason to describe that as Puppet and not one of the alternatives. In the original convention, the puppet (technically marionette) response was given on all hands without a 5 card major. So the variation I posted is actually closer to "Puppet Stayman" than the more common form.

As far as Baron hands go, what I mean is slam hands that would look for a any 4-4 fit, typically in a minor. Thus you could play 2NT - 3♣; 3♥ - 3♠; 3NT - 4m as showing a 4 card suit with the direct 4m (over 3♥) showing 5. When I read back over my last post it occurs to me that Baron hands are a non-issue over 3NT because you probably do not open 2NT with 5♥4m hands, so this method would be worth considering. Something like:-

3♠ = puppet to 3NT, then 4m = 4 card suit; 4M = 5m4oM, SI
3NT = 5 spades
4m = 5 card suit
4♥ = 5-5 majors, nf (or slam try if you cover this hand elsewhere)

This feels very natural to me but that is probably because I used 1NT - 2♠ as Baron for many years as a junior - it is a very popular method in the UK.

[mgoetze]

Zelandakh, on 2015-August-16, 07:19, said:

OK, well Puppet Stayman has a lot of different flavours and the version where 3♦ promises a 4 card major is only one of them. There is no reason to describe that as Puppet and not one of the alternatives. In the original convention, the puppet (technically marionette) response was given on all hands without a 5 card major. So the variation I posted is actually closer to "Puppet Stayman" than the more common form.

"Puppet Stayman has a lot of different flavours" - perhaps in the alternate universe you live in. Where I come from, everyone knows exactly which flavour you mean when you say "Puppet Stayman" without adding anything. And it doesn't matter if it used to mean something else, or if you wish it meant something else - that's what it means right now.

Quote

3♠ = puppet to 3NT, then 4m = 4 card suit; 4M = 5m4oM, SI
3NT = 5 spades
4m = 5 card suit
4♥ = 5-5 majors, nf (or slam try if you cover this hand elsewhere)

Surely it is somewhat important for opener to know which minor responder has, as playing slam on a 5-2 fit has a tendency to cause unhappiness. As such if anything 3♠-3NT-4♥ = clubs and 3♠-3NT-3♠ = diamonds would make more sense to me. But I don't understand how you propose this to be different from the direct 4m. If you're not making a slam try, why are you bidding past 3NT anyway?

[Zelandakh]

mgoetze, on 2015-August-16, 07:39, said:

"Puppet Stayman has a lot of different flavours" - perhaps in the alternate universe you live in. Where I come from, everyone knows exactly which flavour you mean when you say "Puppet Stayman" without adding anything. And it doesn't matter if it used to mean something else, or if you wish it meant something else - that's what it means right now.


Surely it is somewhat important for opener to know which minor responder has, as playing slam on a 5-2 fit has a tendency to cause unhappiness. As such if anything 3♠-3NT-4♥ = clubs and 3♠-3NT-3♠ = diamonds would make more sense to me. But I don't understand how you propose this to be different from the direct 4m. If you're not making a slam try, why are you bidding past 3NT anyway?

Both routes to 4m are slam tries - one is with a 4 card suit and the other with a 5 card suit. There is a typo in the delayed 4M in that it should read 5M-4oM, so perhaps that is the confusion. It is clear which minor is held though - if clubs are bid they hold clubs and the same for diamonds!