[jjbrr]

 ldrews, on 2018-October-20, 07:22, said:

Apparently you find that ignorance of what is going on works better than knowledge. Interesting.

lol

[Winstonm]

I suppose 15 guys trying to kill one middle aged man with him fighting for his life could loosely be termed "a fight", and by that definition the Saudi's explanation could be deemed "credible".

[johnu]

 Winstonm, on 2018-October-20, 11:09, said:

I suppose 15 guys trying to kill one middle aged man with him fighting for his life could loosely be termed "a fight", and by that definition the Saudi's explanation could be deemed "credible".

Just like Dennison believes torture works quickly and effectively because he saw it on the "24" TV series, maybe he is a fan of kung-fu or Jackie Chan movies where 1 guy can outfight a platoon of highly skilled combatants.

[cherdano]

 Winstonm, on 2018-October-20, 11:09, said:

I suppose 15 guys trying to kill one middle aged man with him fighting for his life could loosely be termed "a fight", and by that definition the Saudi's explanation could be deemed "credible".

Don't we all carry around a bonesaw just in case a fist fight breaks out and ends with a body to be disposed of?

[kenberg]

Just a cranky post:
Anyone who reviews my posts of the last couple of years (I don't expect anyone would) will see that from the beginning I thought Trump was a truly awful choice for president. Or for anything. So nothing new there. But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems. There are many important tings happening but I will illustrate with the trivial, the Pocahontas flap. Why on Earth, or why on any planet, would a prominent political figure think anyone cares a whit as to whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry? I took the 23 and me test and found that I come in fairly high on the Neanderthal scale. I mentioned it to one of my daughters, she chuckled and said something like "We Neanderthals have come a long way" and then we went on to some other topic. Why would anyone care? And if I made a big deal of my Neanderthal ancestry, perhaps people would start referring to me as Fred Flintstone, but they would be jabbing at me, not at Fred. Now I haven't looked it up, but I believe Pocahontas was not Cherokee. Does this make any sort of difference? What are we doing?

My point: Trump is a jerk, I have never thought otherwise, but I wish the Dems would get their act together. Nobody cares who Elizabeth Warren's ancestors were. There are larger issues, and I hope the responses can be something better than what we are now seeing. A lot better. It might also get then more votes. Someone might tell them that those of us who can barely trace our ancestry back more than one generation don't really care who has ancestors that came over on the Mayflower or who has Cherokee blood.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2018-October-20, 13:07, said:

Just a cranky post:
Anyone who reviews my posts of the last couple of years (I don't expect anyone would) will see that from the beginning I thought Trump was a truly awful choice for president. Or for anything. So nothing new there. But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems. There are many important tings happening but I will illustrate with the trivial, the Pocahontas flap. Why on Earth, or why on any planet, would a prominent political figure think anyone cares a whit as to whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry? I took the 23 and me test and found that I come in fairly high on the Neanderthal scale. I mentioned it to one of my daughters, she chuckled and said something like "We Neanderthals have come a long way" and then we went on to some other topic. Why would anyone care? And if I made a big deal of my Neanderthal ancestry, perhaps people would start referring to me as Fred Flintstone, but they would be jabbing at me, not at Fred. Now I haven't looked it up, but I believe Pocahontas was not Cherokee. Does this make any sort of difference? What are we doing?

My point: Trump is a jerk, I have never thought otherwise, but I wish the Dems would get their act together. Nobody cares who Elizabeth Warren's ancestors were. There are larger issues, and I hope the responses can be something better than what we are now seeing. A lot better. It might also get then more votes. Someone might tell them that those of us who can barely trace our ancestry back more than one generation don't really care who has ancestors that came over on the Mayflower or who has Cherokee blood.

As the old story goes, a guy's dad told him that if a guy tells him he can make the jack of spades jump out of a deck of cards and spit in his ear don't bet him cause you'll end up poorer and with a wet ear.

Moral: Don't try to appeal to Dennison's base. Don't play his game.

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2018-October-20, 13:45, said:

As the old story goes, a guy's dad told him that if a guy tells him he can make the jack of spades jump out of a deck of cards and spit in his ear don't bet him cause you'll end up poorer and with a wet ear.

Moral: Don't try to appeal to Dennison's base. Don't play his game.

Of course.
I wasn't.
Who would?

What was I doing beyond being cranky? Expressing dismay, I guess. We should be able to do better.

[johnu]

 kenberg, on 2018-October-20, 13:07, said:

Just a cranky post:
Anyone who reviews my posts of the last couple of years (I don't expect anyone would) will see that from the beginning I thought Trump was a truly awful choice for president. Or for anything. So nothing new there. But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems. There are many important tings happening but I will illustrate with the trivial, the Pocahontas flap. Why on Earth, or why on any planet, would a prominent political figure think anyone cares a whit as to whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry?

Yes, agree that was a cranky post. The reason for releasing the DNA test results was to take away a Dennison talking point in a potential presidential election. Nothing more, nothing less. I completely disagree with Warren's timing of the release. Surely this could have waited a couple of weeks until after the mid-term elections as it took the focus away from Dennison's craziness and Republican pre-existing condition sliming if only for a day or so.

[barmar]

 kenberg, on 2018-October-20, 13:07, said:

Why on Earth, or why on any planet, would a prominent political figure think anyone cares a whit as to whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry?

I actually asked that very question on the Politics Stack Exchange a few days ago:

Why is Elizabeth Warren's Native American ancestry a political issue?

[hrothgar]

 kenberg, on 2018-October-20, 13:07, said:

Just a cranky post:
Anyone who reviews my posts of the last couple of years (I don't expect anyone would) will see that from the beginning I thought Trump was a truly awful choice for president. Or for anything. So nothing new there. But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems. There are many important tings happening but I will illustrate with the trivial, the Pocahontas flap. Why on Earth, or why on any planet, would a prominent political figure think anyone cares a whit as to whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry?

Ken, here's the thing...

If you really didn't care about this controversy, you wouldn't care that Warren chose to respond to it.
You'd just ignore it completely.

For better or worse, this whole *****-show captures peoples imaginations...

Even if people aren't talking about the controversy directly, they're posting about how this will impact the race.

If people spent half the same energy dealing with real issues, we'd all be a lot better off.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2018-October-20, 14:08, said:

Of course.
I wasn't.
Who would?

What was I doing beyond being cranky? Expressing dismay, I guess. We should be able to do better.

My comment was directed to the actions of Elizabeth Warren, who I feel was tricked into trying to play Dennison's game. Bad decision on her part.

Democrats need to stick to the issues, not try to out-Dennison Dennison.

[ldrews]

Another viewpoint:

https://i.redd.it/qruvog93cet11.jpg

[cherdano]

 ldrews, on 2018-October-20, 16:29, said:

Another viewpoint:

https://i.redd.it/qruvog93cet11.jpg

Thank you as always for your deep and meaningful contributions to this thread. They are so eye-opening, and really change people's minds!

[ldrews]

 cherdano, on 2018-October-20, 16:52, said:

Thank you as always for your deep and meaningful contributions to this thread. They are so eye-opening, and really change people's minds!

Not likely yours. Have a nice day.

[Chas_P]

 kenberg, on 2018-October-20, 13:07, said:

Just a cranky post:
Anyone who reviews my posts of the last couple of years (I don't expect anyone would) will see that from the beginning I thought Trump was a truly awful choice for president. Or for anything. So nothing new there. But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems. There are many important tings happening but I will illustrate with the trivial, the Pocahontas flap. Why on Earth, or why on any planet, would a prominent political figure think anyone cares a whit as to whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry? I took the 23 and me test and found that I come in fairly high on the Neanderthal scale. I mentioned it to one of my daughters, she chuckled and said something like "We Neanderthals have come a long way" and then we went on to some other topic. Why would anyone care? And if I made a big deal of my Neanderthal ancestry, perhaps people would start referring to me as Fred Flintstone, but they would be jabbing at me, not at Fred. Now I haven't looked it up, but I believe Pocahontas was not Cherokee. Does this make any sort of difference? What are we doing?

My point: Trump is a jerk, I have never thought otherwise, but I wish the Dems would get their act together. Nobody cares who Elizabeth Warren's ancestors were. There are larger issues, and I hope the responses can be something better than what we are now seeing. A lot better. It might also get then more votes. Someone might tell them that those of us who can barely trace our ancestry back more than one generation don't really care who has ancestors that came over on the Mayflower or who has Cherokee blood.

Not cranky. Very thoughtful. I've had the same thoughts. We are paying these people a pretty decent wage "to form a more perfect Union, establish justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity". We need more statesmen and fewer politicians. I remember watching Sheldon Whitehouse questioning Brett Kavanaugh about farting when he was 16 years old and thinking, "We're paying this guy $174,000/year to question a Supreme Court Nominee about farting when he was a teenager?" God (if there is one) help us.

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2018-October-20, 15:09, said:

My comment was directed to the actions of Elizabeth Warren, who I feel was tricked into trying to play Dennison's game. Bad decision on her part.

Democrats need to stick to the issues, not try to out-Dennison Dennison.

I said "I will illustrate with the trivial", I assume nobody on this thread cares whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry. But "tricked"? When someone is tricked, that person might at least give some thought to how that could happen, and if that person is a potential presidential candidate, the rest of us might be interested in the answer as well.

All in all, I think my dismay is a pretty realistic evaluation. The Cherokee flap can be forgotten. It's silly, she brought it on herself, but it is truly silly. Of course the silly things often have a way of hanging around. I think some sell-examination would be very useful, certainly not just on this silly issue and certainly not just by Elizabeth Warren.

If someone puts something over on me, I ask myself what I was thinking, how it could happen. Of course the answer will often be, in part, that I was dealing with a trickster. But the explanation should not stop there. If the tricked person is not a dullard, which Elizabeth Warren certainly is not, then there can really be a profit in thinking it through.

[Winstonm]

 kenberg, on 2018-October-20, 18:44, said:

I said "I will illustrate with the trivial", I assume nobody on this thread cares whether she does or does not have Cherokee ancestry. But "tricked"? When someone is tricked, that person might at least give some thought to how that could happen, and if that person is a potential presidential candidate, the rest of us might be interested in the answer as well.

All in all, I think my dismay is a pretty realistic evaluation. The Cherokee flap can be forgotten. It's silly, she brought it on herself, but it is truly silly. Of course the silly things often have a way of hanging around. I think some sell-examination would be very useful, certainly not just on this silly issue and certainly not just by Elizabeth Warren.

If someone puts something over on me, I ask myself what I was thinking, how it could happen. Of course the answer will often be, in part, that I was dealing with a trickster. But the explanation should not stop there. If the tricked person is not a dullard, which Elizabeth Warren certainly is not, then there can really be a profit in thinking it through.

Ken,

You might like this from the NYT. I certainly agree with it.

Quote

Elizabeth Warren screwed up. That’s clear. Her big confirmation of Native American blood offended some Native Americans, did nothing to muffle or muzzle Donald Trump and left many journalists — me included — questioning her tactical smarts.

But the media focus on her misjudgment, her character and whether she had the right stuff for the White House underscores the absurdity of our current politics, in terms of the advantage it confers on the president. We expect much of anyone stepping forward to challenge him. We expect absolutely nothing of him.

Consider his role and behavior in the Warren saga. Her ancestry test followed his incessant mocking of her as “Pocahontas,” a schoolyard gibe from a puerile mind.

She was specifically provoked by his recent statement that if he ever debated her, he’d insist that she submit to such an analysis and, if it showed any Native American blood, he’d donate $1 million to the charity of her choice. But when she presented such evidence last week, he immediately backpedaled, suggesting that he’d pledged nothing of the kind.

Was there much attention to that? Nah. It was expected, familiar, another artless evasion atop an ever-growing Matterhorn of lies. Political observers wondered more about how her bungle squared with her presidential ambitions than about how his bogusness squared with the presidency itself. They fretted over her flaws because they — and more crucially, many American voters — long ago resigned themselves to his. Hers are quantifiable, definable. His have no bounds.

That’s Trump’s edge over everybody. That’s his gift. He can do no wrong because he’s all wrong. He never really shocks because he’s a perpetual shock.

When someone frolics at the nadir for as long as he has, there’s nowhere to go but sideways.

[y66]

From Canada condemns killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi at Global Affairs Canada:

Quote

Statement

October 20, 2018 - Ottawa, Ontario - Global Affairs Canada

The Honourable Chrystia Freeland, Minister of Foreign Affairs, today issued the following statement:

“Canada condemns the killing of journalist Jamal Khashoggi, which the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has confirmed took place in its consulate in Istanbul.

“The explanations offered to date lack consistency and credibility.

“We also express our sincere condolences to Hatice Cengiz and the family and loved ones of Mr. Khashoggi. The pain they are enduring as a result of this tragedy is heartbreaking.

“We reiterate our call for a thorough investigation, in full collaboration with the Turkish authorities, and a full and rigorous accounting of the circumstances surrounding Mr. Khashoggi’s death.

“Those responsible for the killing must be held to account and must face justice.”

[kenberg]

 Winstonm, on 2018-October-20, 20:08, said:

Ken,

You might like this from the NYT. I certainly agree with it.

Well, yes. Or yes but.

I was mainly speaking of my disappointment with the Dems. " But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems."
The Ds are excellent at describing Trump as awful. I never thought otherwise. I suggest the Ds engage in a bit of self-examination, they respond that Trump is awful. Got that part. But it's not the response I was hoping for. Well, "response" is not the right word, I do not expect them to be reading my words and responding. I am hopeing for something different from what I am seeing.


We will see how this all goes. I am, as mentioned, a bit dismayed. I think the leadership might be spending too much time not only telling themselves how awful Trump is but also telling themselves how bright and wonderful they themselves are and how stupid the voters are for not seeing their goodness and their brilliance. They apparently think that they have learned the lessons of 2016. I am not so sure.

Anyway, it's hard to argue with dismay, if I am dismayed I am dismayed. So this is more a expression of a view than any sort of logical argument.

[hrothgar]

 kenberg, on 2018-October-20, 20:35, said:

I was mainly speaking of my disappointment with the Dems. " But I have become increasing discouraged by what I see of the Dems."
The Ds are excellent at describing Trump as awful. I never thought otherwise. I suggest the Ds engage in a bit of self-examination, they respond that Trump is awful. Got that part. But it's not the response I was hoping for. Well, "response" is not the right word, I do not expect them to be reading my words and responding. I am hopeing for something different from what I am seeing.

Aren't you the one who also managed to make it through the entire last election cycle without every managing to do any reading on Clinton's platform?

You seem to expect that the democrats have some miraculous ability to come into your house and spoon feed you content.
Its doesn't work this way. The media focuses on what people like to read, and that's salacious dirt.

If you want something more than that YOU needed to do some WORK.