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Has U.S. Democracy Been Trumped? Bernie Sanders wants to know who owns America?

#13341 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 15:24

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-August-03, 09:41, said:

It occurred to me that the impact shelf life for trolls is fairly short

Is it? Tell us, how long has AI_U_C been posting here? Dodgy Donald only has to keep the con going for another 15 months. Hoping everything will collapse from itself within that timeframe is not a recipe for success.
(-: Zel :-)
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#13342 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 16:07

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-August-04, 15:24, said:

Is it? Tell us, how long has AI_U_C been posting here? Dodgy Donald only has to keep the con going for another 15 months. Hoping everything will collapse from itself within that timeframe is not a recipe for success.


When I say shelflife I mean the amount of time when the troll is impactful. After a time, the troll messages are pretty much ignored.

Quote

....a Quartz analysis of his[Trump's] personal Twitter account data shows. Engagement with his tweets has plummeted since the beginning of this year:
https://qz.com/16650...his-tweets-now/
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#13343 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 16:19

Amazing that it takes a young man in a wheelchair to turn us in the right direction and face down the far right.

Quote

8chan Is a Megaphone for Gunmen. ‘Shut the Site Down,’ Says Its Creator.


By Kevin Roose
Aug. 4, 2019

Fredrick Brennan was getting ready for church at his home in the Philippines when the news of a mass shooting in El Paso arrived. His response was immediate and instinctive.

“Whenever I hear about a mass shooting, I say, ‘All right, we have to research if there’s an 8chan connection,’” he said.

Mr. Brennan started the online message board 8chan in 2013, as a spinoff of 4chan, the better-known message board. In its early years, the site was known as an unmoderated free-for-all site populated by anonymous posters, where shocking and offensive humor reigned.

Now, 8chan is known as something else: a megaphone for mass shooters, and a recruiting platform for violent white nationalists. And Mr. Brennan, who stopped working with the site’s current owner last year, is calling for it to be taken offline before it leads to further violence.

“Shut the site down,” Mr. Brennan said in an interview on Sunday. “It’s not doing the world any good. It’s a complete negative to everybody except the users that are there. And you know what? It’s a negative to them, too. They just don’t realize it.”


https://www.nytimes....pgtype=Homepage
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#13344 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 16:42

View Postjohnu, on 2019-August-04, 14:12, said:

Mass Shooting In Dayton, Ohio, Leaves At Least 9 Dead, 27 Injured

The memorials for the El Paso victims haven't even started to be planned and there's yet another gun massacre to take the focus off El Paso and reset the clock to begin talking about the politics of gun control.


Followup story in the news

Ohio gunman taken down within 30 seconds of first shots -police

Quote

A gunman who attacked revelers outside a bar in Dayton, Ohio, early on Sunday, killing nine people and wounding 27 others, was taken down by officers within 30 seconds of firing his first shots, the city's police chief said.

The headline of the article speaks for itself. Less than 30 seconds to fire all those shots. I blame the NRA and politicians who are paid by the NRA for this unnecessary death and carnage.
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#13345 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 16:58

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-August-04, 16:07, said:


Your hopes are based around his tweets being liked and retweeted at approximately the same rate as in Mar-Apr 2017?
(-: Zel :-)
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#13346 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 17:04

From John Delaney via Matt Yglesias:

Quote

There are many things we need to do on gun safety, including requiring liability insurance to own/purchase a firearm (like we do to own a car). It would probably cost an average hunter $5 a year, but if you have a history of hate crimes it would be cost prohibitive. Commonsense.

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#13347 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 17:22

From Will Wilkinson at NYT via Chris Hayes:

Quote

The Republican Party under Donald Trump has devolved into a populist cult of personality. But Mr. Trump won’t be president forever. Can the cult persist without its personality? Does Trumpist nationalism contain a kernel of coherent ideology that can outlast the Trump presidency?

At a recent conference in Washington, a group of conservatives did their level best to promote Trumpism without Trump (rebranded as “national conservatism”) as a cure for all that ails our frayed and faltering republic. But the exclusive Foggy Bottom confab served only to clarify that “national conservatism” is an abortive monstrosity, neither conservative nor national. Its animating principle is contempt for the actually existing United States of America, and the nation it proposes is not ours.

Bitter cultural and political division inevitably leads to calls for healing reconciliation under the banner of shared citizenship and national identity. After all, we’re all Americans, and our fortunes are bound together, like it or not.

Yet the question of who “we” are as “a people” is the central question on which we’re polarized. High-minded calls to reunite under the flag therefore tend to take a side and amount to little more than a demand for the other side’s unconditional surrender. “Agree with me, and then we won’t disagree” is more a threat than an argument.

The way the nationalist sees it, liberals always throw the first punch by “changing things.” When members of the “Great American Middle” (to use the artfully coded phrase of Senator Josh Hawley of Missouri to refer to nonurban whites) lash out in response to the provocations of progressive social change, they see themselves as patriots defending their America from internal attack.

The attackers — the nature-denying feminists, ungrateful blacks, babbling immigrants, ostentatiously wedded gays — bear full responsibility for any damage wrought by populist backlash, because they incited it by demanding and claiming a measure of equal freedom. But they aren’t entitled to it, because the conservative denizens of the fruited plain are entitled first to a country that feels like home to them. That’s what America is. So the blame for polarizing mutual animosity must always fall on those who fought for, or failed to prevent, the developments that made America into something else — a country “real Americans” find hard to recognize or love.

The practical implication of the nationalist’s entitled perspective is that unifying social reconciliation requires submission to a vision of national identity flatly incompatible with the existence and political equality of America’s urban multicultural majority. That’s a recipe for civil war, not social cohesion.

Yoram Hazony, author of “The Virtue of Nationalism” and impresario of the “national conservatism” conference, argued that America’s loss of social cohesion is because of secularization and egalitarian social change that began in the 1960s. “You throw out Christianity, you throw out the Torah, you throw out God,” Mr. Hazony warned, “and within two generations people can’t tell the difference between a man and a woman. They can’t tell the difference between a foreigner and a citizen. They can’t tell the difference between this side of the border and the other side of the border.”

“The only way to save this country, to bring it back to cohesion,” he added, “is going to be to restore those traditions.”

Mr. Hazony gave no hint as to how this might be peacefully done within the scope of normal liberal-democratic politics. “It’s not simple,” he eventually conceded. Mr. Hazony notably omitted to mention, much less to condemn, the atrocious cruelty of America’s existing nationalist regime. Indeed, roaring silence around our Trumpian reality was the conference’s most consistent and telling theme.

The incoherence of an American nationalism meant to “conserve” an imaginary past was not lost on everyone at the conference. Patrick Deneen, a political theorist at Notre Dame, pointed out that American nationalism has historically been a progressive project. The nationalism of Theodore Roosevelt and Woodrow Wilson, he noted, arose as the United States began to establish itself as an imperial power of global reach. Building nations has always been about building armies, regimenting the population and centralizing political control.

Yuval Levin, the editor of National Affairs, similarly observed that nationalist projects meant to unite the diverse tribes and cultures of large territories generally involve a program of political mythmaking and the state-backed suppression of ancestral ethnic and community identities.

Mr. Levin suggested that a genuinely conservative nationalism, in the context of a vast national territory with an immense multiethnic population, would refrain from uprooting these traditions and communities and seek instead to preserve them in a vision of the nation as “the sum of various uneven, ancient, lovable elements,” because we are “prepared for love of country by a love of home.”

But what, today, do Americans call “home”? The next logical step would be to observe that the contemporary sum of rooted, lovable American elements includes the black culture of Compton, the Mexican culture of Albuquerque, the Indian culture of suburban Houston, the Chinese culture of San Francisco, the Orthodox Jewish culture of Brooklyn, the Cuban culture of Miami and the “woke” progressive culture of the college town archipelago, as well as the conservative culture of the white small town. But Mr. Levin, a gifted rhetorician who knew his audience, did not hazard this step.

Barack Obama claimed resounding victory in two presidential elections on the strength of a genuinely conservative conception of pluralistic American identity that embraced and celebrated America as it exists. Yet this unifying vision, from the mouth of a black president, primed the ethnonationalist backlash that put Mr. Trump in the White House.

The molten core of right-wing nationalism is the furious denial of America’s unalterably multiracial, multicultural national character. This denialism is the crux of the new nationalism’s disloyal contempt for the United States of America. The struggle to make good on the founding promise of equal freedom is the dark but hopeful thread that runs through our national story and defines our national character. It’s a noble, inspiring story, but the conservative nationalist rejects it, because it casts Robert E. Lee, and the modern defenders of his monuments, as the bad guys — the obstacles we must overcome to make our nation more fully, more truly American.

Without obstacles, there is no story. The rise of Trumpist ethnonationalism opened a new chapter, a new variation on the primal American theme, and its outcome will again define us. We must remember that it’s our story, that we write it — with our bodies, our money, our voices, our votes. And we must never lose the thread.

To reject pluralism and liberalizing progress is to reject the United States of America as it is, to heap contempt upon American heroes who shed blood and tears fighting for the liberty and equality of their compatriots. The nationalist’s nostalgic whitewashed fantasy vision of American national identity cannot be restored, because it never existed. What they seek to impose is fundamentally hostile to a nation forged in the defining American struggle for equal freedom, and we become who we are as we struggle against them.

Whether couched in vulgarities or professorial prose, reactionary nationalism is seditious, anti-patriotic loathing of America hiding behind a flag — our flag. We won’t allow it, because we know how to build a nation. We know how the American story goes: We fight; we take it back.

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#13348 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 17:36

More bullsh*t from NRA sponsored Republicans

(US Senator)Tim Scott warns against 'politicizing' mass shootings

Quote

"The first thing I'd say is that we need to take a step back from politicizing every event," Scott said on "Face the Nation" Sunday.

Spoken like a politician 100% owned by the NRA.

NRA Endorses Tim Scott for U.S. Senate in South Carolina

Quote

Based on his support of and commitment to the Second Amendment, Scott has earned an “A” rating from the NRA-PVF in the November 4, 2014 election. An “A” rating is reserved for a solidly pro-gun legislator who has supported the NRA’s position on votes of importance to gun owners.

“Tim backs up his commitment to our Second Amendment Rights with one of the strongest pro-gun and pro-freedom voting records in the Senate,” said Chris W. Cox, chairman of the NRA-PVF.

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#13349 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 18:40

View PostWinstonm, on 2019-August-04, 12:03, said:

Ken, it's not that I disagree with you but I think it's also critical to understand who is on what side of the question and just who it is that needs to alter their views.

A holy-scripture-like adherence to a document and a reading of that document to fit beliefs is not the provenance of the middle ground, right-leaning, left-leaning, or left. That is something firmly grounded in the strong-right.

Until the strong right - especially the right-media-complex - no longer controls the entire Republican party, we will have nowhere to go and nothing will be done.

There is middle ground; unfortunately, we have been deemed unworthy to find it.


I will push on this a bit because I think it is important for how the 2020 election is approached. We could lock you and Ann Coulter in a room for three days and if you both emerged alive neither of you would have budged an inch. But this is not true of everyone, and that's where the votes are.

I was given my first shotgun when I was about 12. I gave up hunting in my early 20s. Not on some great principle but because I realized that I really wasn't Daniel Boone nor any close replica of Daniel Boone. I am not trying to get people to give up hunting, but weapons that allow a person to kill 20 people in a minute, or maybe it's three minutes or four minutes, should only be in the possession of well-trained people that have a very clear reason to have them. There is no reason to have such a weapon unless you imagine using it, and if they are easy to get then a lot of people will choose to use it. "Production for use" is an old phrase from the silly comedy His Girl Friday, the idea being that if something is produced then we should expect it to be used. If we want it to be used only rarely and only when the situation clearly warrants its use, then we need to control its manufacture and distribution.

Of course you and many WC folks agree, but my point is that there are a great many people out there who would also agree. It's important that people not only agree but come to see that widespread ownership of such weapons is so idiotic that it can only be explained as the result of lawmakers who have been bought or intimidated.. Then, when this is understood by a large number of not particularly political people, we will see some action. Forget those who revel in the hope of mowing down a bunch of people, all for good reason they think, they won't be changing. But ordinary people are getting more and more fed up, and that's where we go for votes. The people in the middle ground are exactly who we should be looking at.
Ken
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#13350 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 19:48

https://www.youtube....h?v=c9lh7lqZojc
--------------------
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#13351 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-August-04, 19:49

View PostZelandakh, on 2019-August-04, 16:58, said:

Your hopes are based around his tweets being liked and retweeted at approximately the same rate as in Mar-Apr 2017?


No, that is just an example that supports my own experience that red-hot emotions cannot be sustained, and emotions are the basis of Trump's support.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#13352 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2019-August-05, 07:52

From David Leonhardt at NYT:

Quote

American conservatism has a violence problem.

The current secretary of energy, Rick Perry, once publicly suggested that the chairman of the Federal Reserve deserved to be beaten up because of his interest rate policy. Greg Gianforte, a member of Congress from Montana, physically assaulted a reporter who asked him a question he didn’t like.

President Trump has repeatedly alluded to extrajudicial physical force, including suggesting that his supporters might resort to violence if they didn’t get their way.

The most extreme version of conservatism’s violence problem is the most tragic: the pattern of mass shootings by people espousing right-wing views, sometimes encouraged in online forums.

Last year, 39 of the 50 killings committed by political extremists, according to the Anti-Defamation League, were carried out by white supremacists. Another eight were committed by killers with anti-government views. Over the past 10 years, right-wing extremists were responsible for more than 70 percent of extremist-related killings. “Right-wing extremist violence is our biggest threat,” Jonathan Greenblatt, the head of the A.D.L., has written. “The numbers don’t lie.”

The latest example came on Saturday in El Paso when a 21-year-old white man apparently killed 20 people, after having first announced in a manifesto that his attack was a response to “the Hispanic invasion of Texas.” His language mimicked the language that Trump has used.

Yes, I understand that there are important caveats to add. Conservative America is mostly filled with honorable people who deplore violence and bear no responsibility for right-wing hate killings. Some mass shootings have no evident political motive, like the one in Dayton, Ohio, on Sunday. And liberal America also has violent and deranged people, like the man who shot at Republican members of Congress playing softball in 2017. Some Democratic politicians have also occasionally lapsed into ugly, violent rhetoric and suggested they want to punch their political opponents.

But it’s folly to pretend that the problem is symmetrical. Mainstream conservative politicians use the rhetoric of physical violence much more often, starting with the current president of the United States. And right-wing extremists have a culture of violence unlike anything on the left. Its consequences are fatal, again and again.

Over the years, Republicans have sometimes called on Muslim leaders to ask themselves why their religion has produced a disproportionate share of the world’s terrorist attacks — and to do something about the situation. I’d urge those Republicans to take their own advice. Right-wing terrorism is killing far more Americans these days than Islamist terrorism.

Related

Kathleen Belew of the University of Chicago, in The Times: “Too many people still think of these attacks as single events, rather than interconnected actions carried out by domestic terrorists.”

Jennifer Rubin, Washington Post: “It’s not merely Republicans’ indulgence of the National Rifle Association that puts Americans’ lives in jeopardy; it is the support and enabling of a president that inspires white nationalist terrorists — and even denies white nationalism is a problem.”

A front-page Wall Street Journal story today: “Oth­ers, in­clud­ing some mem­bers of Con­gress and ex­perts who study U.S. ex­trem­ism, said the F.B.I. has been too slow to di­vert some of the ex­ten­sive re­sources it de­votes to com­bat­ing Is­lamic ter­ror­ism to thwarting do­mes­tic hate groups. The bu­reau ex­pended con­sid­er­able re­sources on white su­premacy in the 1990s but changed its fo­cus af­ter the Sept. 11, 2001, ter­ror­ist at­tacks.”

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#13353 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-August-05, 08:01

View Posty66, on 2019-August-05, 07:52, said:

From David Leonhardt at NYT:


Zealots do not follow or use facts. When they cannot convince others to adopt their ways there is no argument they can make other than "trust me" or "I know". When that doesn't work, force is the only method left to compel.

A main reason I so admire Elizabeth Warren is that she used to be a conservative, but she followed facts to a new understanding and point of view. That shows genuine intelligence and courage.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#13354 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-August-05, 08:06

Quote

A San Francisco-based Web company announced Sunday it would no longer provide services to 8chan, a website notorious for hosting lawless message boards where manifestos have appeared before mass shootings.

"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#13355 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2019-August-05, 09:54

View Postkenberg, on 2019-August-04, 18:40, said:

Of course you and many WC folks agree, but my point is that there are a great many people out there who would also agree. It's important that people not only agree but come to see that widespread ownership of such weapons is so idiotic that it can only be explained as the result of lawmakers who have been bought or intimidated.. Then, when this is understood by a large number of not particularly political people, we will see some action. Forget those who revel in the hope of mowing down a bunch of people, all for good reason they think, they won't be changing. But ordinary people are getting more and more fed up, and that's where we go for votes. The people in the middle ground are exactly who we should be looking at.

The problem is that the NRA has convinced many responsible gun owners that any form of gun control is just the first stepping stone to taking their guns away. So not only are the Republican legislators in the pockets of Big Gun, but they get plenty of support from their constituents because they've been brainwashed with this fear (much like the way the GOP says that Democrats want the US to become Socialist -- as if we're not already 75% of the way there already).

Polls say that most people are in favor of reasonable gun legislation, like universal background checks and getting rid of the gun show loophole. But when it actually comes time to pass any legislation, the "slippery slope" argument comes out and nothing can get done.

#13356 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-August-05, 12:35

View Postbarmar, on 2019-August-05, 09:54, said:

The problem is that the NRA has convinced many responsible gun owners that any form of gun control is just the first stepping stone to taking their guns away. So not only are the Republican legislators in the pockets of Big Gun, but they get plenty of support from their constituents because they've been brainwashed with this fear (much like the way the GOP says that Democrats want the US to become Socialist -- as if we're not already 75% of the way there already).

Polls say that most people are in favor of reasonable gun legislation, like universal background checks and getting rid of the gun show loophole. But when it actually comes time to pass any legislation, the "slippery slope" argument comes out and nothing can get done.


I understand. I am saying that we do not have to accept this as immutable. We need to keep the message simple. This is not because the intended audience is a bunch of morons but rather because simple is often best. If a large number of people have weapons that can be used to kill several people a minute, some of those people will do exactly that. So the choices are: Put a stop to the possession of such weapons, or let the killings continue. It is really that simple. We do not have to speak of R or D, of left wing or right wing. We do not have to discuss what the framers did or did not mean when they put in the introductory clause about militias. If we continue with the rules that we have, we will continue to get the results that we are getting. Mild adjustments to the rules will have no appreciable affect. Who would disagree? People can think that over, and then some will come to what I think is the completely obvious conclusion. As neighbor talks with neighbor, this can snowball. Then we get some long needed action. So I think. People like to go to malls without worrying that they or their kids will get shot.
Ken
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#13357 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2019-August-05, 14:01

The way I understand it is as follows. To have freedom from government, Americans need guns. Without background checks. Or any restrictions.
What about mass shootings? Well, they are usually committed by mentally ill people, and usually there were some warning signs here and there. So we need the government to keep track of mentally ill people. And of these warning signs. And of potentially ill people. Basically, to keep Americans free from too much government, and also safe, the government needs to create a massive database of possibly mentally ill people, and do lots of surveillance of possibly mentally ill people, and of course preventive intervention should there be warning signs.
Also, to keep Americans free from too much government, and safe, the government should closely monitor video games, and intervene if there are any that could potentially be seen as glorifying violence.
Government needs to do a lot to keep Americans free from too much government!
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#13358 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2019-August-06, 00:59

View Postcherdano, on 2019-August-05, 14:01, said:

The way I understand it is as follows. To have freedom from government, Americans need guns. Without background checks. Or any restrictions.
What about mass shootings? Well, they are usually committed by mentally ill people, and usually there were some warning signs here and there. So we need the government to keep track of mentally ill people. And of these warning signs. And of potentially ill people. Basically, to keep Americans free from too much government, and also safe, the government needs to create a massive database of possibly mentally ill people, and do lots of surveillance of possibly mentally ill people, and of course preventive intervention should there be warning signs.
Also, to keep Americans free from too much government, and safe, the government should closely monitor video games, and intervene if there are any that could potentially be seen as glorifying violence.
Government needs to do a lot to keep Americans free from too much government!


Well, it's true that Republicans are all for smaller government and less government spending....

Sean Hannity Proposes Massive Armed Force To ‘Surround’ All Schools And Stores

Manchurian President Whisperer Hannity probably has already pitched this idea to Dennison during their nightly phone calls.

Quote

There are close to 100,000 public and 35,000 private K-12 schools in the United States so a force large enough to “surround the perimeter” and be on each floor would require several hundred thousand people, if not more. Statista reported that there were 116,000 shopping malls in the U.S. as of 2017, adding several hundred thousand more to the Hannity Force.

According to the U.S. Department of Justice, there are currently 701,000 full-time sworn law enforcement officers in the country; the Hannity Force would essentially come close to matching or even exceeding those numbers, especially if his plan was expanded “everywhere” to include other non-mall stores and shopping centers, courthouses, etc.

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#13359 User is online   kenberg 

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Posted 2019-August-06, 04:46

Reading the two posts directly above is a bit stunning. I tool Cherdanp's as a somewhat satirical exaggeration.. And yes, I got a kick out of it. Hannity is not being satirical, even if it does sound like something from Mad Magazine as I knew Mad in the 50s. Our president actually regards Hannity as a useful person to go to for advice, am I right about that?

We have a problem.
Ken
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#13360 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2019-August-06, 07:18

View Postjohnu, on 2019-August-06, 00:59, said:



Can't help but notice that African-American churches and gay nightclubs are left to fend for themselves.
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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