[KurtGodel]

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Good opposition, East is one of your regular partners and you know him to be aggressive.

[broze]

Agreements at fault. "Penalties of at least one suit" is old-fashioned and unclear. Was North going to penalise 2M as well? If not what does the first double really mean? Unless the agreement for the first double is literally "I can penalise 2M" I am not sitting with the S hand.

[KurtGodel]

broze, on 2015-November-10, 18:31, said:

Agreements at fault. "Penalties of at least one suit" is old-fashioned and unclear. Was North going to penalise 2M as well? If not what does the first double really mean? Unless the agreement for the first double is literally "I can penalise 2M" I am not sitting with the S hand.

It could also be scattered balanced values, pass over 2M is non-forcing.

[aguahombre]

The agreement as stated here is fine. If North absolutely was going for penalty, he would have passed the cue and then doubled the choice. By Doubling the Cue, he brought partner into the consultation. South should remove 3♥x.

So, it is not the agreement, it is South's judgement that went wrong.

Side note: This might have been a good hand for South to plan a pass followed by an unusual 2NT. We happen to have that tool as a passed hand even if it is Partner who opens 1M.

[gwnn]

I agree with agua - I don't like 1♦. Better to pass and bid 2N later.

[rhm]

South final pass was stupid.
I do not mind opening such hands, but if you do, you should not leave your partner in the rain.
This is what you see all the time. People take initial aggressive action and then chicken out, like passing forcing sequences etc.
I think also that North doubles are typical.
You can name them as you like, but in the end they show cards. The best description of doubles after opponents (jump)raise each other is Power doubles.
This is what North had and what he wanted to describe.
Penalty?
How often will you hold a big trump stack after such bidding?

Rainer Herrmann

[gnasher]

South has a normal opening bid, and a normal 4♣ bid over 3♥.

The agreement "Penalties of at least one suit" would be awful if that's what the agreement was, but I'm not convinced that anyone plays that in reality. If someone claims to play this method, ask them what they'd do with Qxx xxx AJx KQxx.

[WesleyC]

As gnasher points out, double pretty much has to show any hand that has 'values but without primary support.' because it's the only sensible start to the auction on any strong balanced hand. Given opener has huge offense and no defence it looks clear to pull the double of 3H even if it is 'penalty oriented'.

On a related note, I can strongly recommend the agreement that if responder passes over the cuebid and then doubles a suit on the next round it is strict penalties. This gives them an option on hands that really are stacked in the opponents suits and playing this double as t/o doesn't make a lot of sense.

[helene_t]

North's second double is not a unilateral penalty. It just says that he still has some interest in defending despite the fact that South couldn't double.

South would certainly not double with a singleton hearts and often not with a doubleton. So it's not like his pass suggests zero defense.

Now North is saying that we can defend if South has a somewhat suitable hand. He hasn't so he must pull.

North doesn't have 5-5 in the majors. If he had, he would have passed initially, as Aqua says. I suppose 3-5 is possible, in that case it is bad luck.

[wank]

obviously south needs to bid. you pass if you have a normalish hand for your bidding to date. this hand doesn't fit that.

[phil_20686]

gnasher, on 2015-November-11, 03:35, said:

South has a normal opening bid, and a normal 4♣ bid over 3♥.

The agreement "Penalties of at least one suit" would be awful if that's what the agreement was, but I'm not convinced that anyone plays that in reality. If someone claims to play this method, ask them what they'd do with Qxx xxx AJx KQxx.

Well I play this method, but I play the the next double is t/o not pen. So on a hand like this south should dble (for t/o) if he is happy to sit 3Hx, and so his pass would tell north that he had no interest in in 3hx. If north dbled it would be t/o or values.