[1eyedjack]

I have a suggestion that is not going to go down well with the management. Furthermore while I perceive and can articulate the need I don't have all the answers.

I think that the management need to take a more proactive role in policing bad manners. To be fair I think that the users could do more to help themselves in this area.

This is not going to be a popular suggestion because it requires devotion of resources. Possibly shared devotion between management and members.

But I feel that the problem has got to the stage where it really is an elephant in the BBO room, and the reputation of BBO as a whole suffers. My impression is that a disproportionate number of forum posts in 2015 were made up of moans about the table manners of partners and opponents.

It is not a problem that can be wholly eliminated. Anonymity is the main contributory factor. While it is a personal preference I would rate anonymity as too valuable to surrender in the interests of improving this problem. As such, any sanction against an offender can be circumvented by the latter creating a new account. And yet, I feel that if they and their behaviour were tolerated less it would be influential in reducing the scale of the problem.

Anonymity is not absolute in some cases. ACBL members in pursuit of ACBL masterpoints on BBO have to register their ACBL number in those events. But this does not stop them from creating a second account purely for when they want to be disruptive. My instinct says that there are not many who do that, but I have no empirical data to support that. Likewise, those who go to the effort to build up a BBO masterpoint ranking are unlikely to want to start again from scratch. So while they may remain anonymous, they have an incentive not to have that ID suspended.

Up to now the methods used to control the issue have been:

1) BBO guidance on their website of what is good manners
2) Players leave tables and partnerships where they suffer bad manners from partners and others, and flag them as enemies or whatever. But in the case of opponents, this is not so practical in tournaments.
3) Table host or tourney host having additional powers, to boot players and prevent them from joining or re-joining.
4) The ultimate sanction - Report to abuse@bbo.com

I have deliberately left off a fifth option: Stick to playing with and against robots.

I am not privy to the amount of traffic that abuse gets. I think that a lot of players use it purely for reporting cheating allegations, and I suspect that the management would rather it stayed that way. I wonder whether it would not be better to split the emails out into cheating@bbo.com for cheating allegations and abuse@bbo.com for pure bad manners.

You could also introduce a single-click procedure that simply reports to BBO an individual as being "bad-mannered" without being specific. A single click would not trigger any action nor involve BBO in any resources to investigate. And a user could only ever report another specific user once. When a user has racked up a large number of reports against his own ID in a short space of time, then BBO would start to look at them. The reports would be time-stamped and BBO has access to the chat logs recorded at that time so the evidence would be there.

Encouraging players at the table to be less tolerant of the bad manners of others and to give as good as they get is not going to get us anywhere. It is not going to solve those who leave mid hand having made a poor decision, and otherwise would just lead to an escalation of chat flame for no benefit.

Just some random thoughts to put out there. One thing I am certain of: the status quo is not acceptable, and it is not an environment conducive to attracting fresh young players to the game. This is particularly pertinent because beginners are not likely to frequent those areas of BBO (ie paid tournaments) where proper protection against bad manners is more established.

[mgoetze]

1eyedjack, on 2015-December-26, 04:07, said:

I have a suggestion that is not going to go down well with the management.

This is a doubly odd way to preface your message. Firstly, because if you believe it to be true, it begs the question of why you are bothering to write anyway. More importantly, it is odd because "the management" is not a bunch of anonymous guys in suits, but rather some well-known people who are no strangers to this forum. In particular, Fred Gitelman has been quite active in promoting the game of bridge, and I for one am convinced he does so not only because he realizes that it is in the best long-term interests of his business to do so, but because he is genuinely passionate about the game itself. If someone has a good idea how to make BBO a more friendly place for people new to bridge, I'm sure Fred would love to hear it.

[nige1]

A problem is that, on the net, bad manners are the norm and they're commonly dealt with in strange ways. For example, on BBF, insolent posters can cause the moderators to close threads, spoiling the enjoyment of others.

[1eyedjack]

mgoetze, on 2015-December-26, 05:14, said:

if you believe it to be true, it begs the question of why you are bothering to write anyway.

Well it raises the question rather than begs it, but you seem to be suggesting that no-one should ever make a suggestion that might be received as critical of the status quo. I don't accept that. Anyway, it was only a prediction, and I would be delighted to be wrong.

I think that the term "management" accurately reflects my intended use of the term and nothing in your objection makes much sense to me.

Anyway, I admitted to not having all the answers, although I started the ball rolling with what I thought were two constructive suggestions.

The main thrust of my post is that I am convinced that more can be done in this area, if sufficiently motivated.

[lycier]

This post is a pure pseudo-proposition,you can't keep mild good manner in the past on the BBO forums,and refused to repent.don't mention others !

[1eyedjack]

I don't know what a pseudo-proposition is. But anyway, the post has nothing to do with manners on BBO forums, but on BBO itself.

[barmar]

nige1, on 2015-December-26, 05:23, said:

A problem is that, on the net, bad manners are the norm and they're commonly dealt with in strange ways. For example, on BBF, insolent posters can cause the moderators to close threads, spoiling the enjoyment of others.

That is the exception, not the rule. The usual reason for such an action is that the thread as a whole has devolved into mostly flaming by those posters, so we think no one is actually getting much enjoyment (except for laughing at how ridiculous they are).

[oryctolagi]

I read through this thread with some interest, because I fear that, for my sins, I am one of those who drew attention to the issue with a recent post and the ensuing thread.

I wonder if too much is being made of an issue which is not really all that serious?

I have only been active on BBO for the past three months or so. In that time I have played nearly 1,000 hands ( ), all in the Acol club, with many different partners and opponents. In all this time, I can count on the fingers of one hand - OK maybe both hands - the instances of bad-mouthing that I have experienced at the table.

Have I just been fortunate in my choice of partners, opponents, and tables, or am I missing something? Maybe other sections of BBO have more of a problem than the Acol club?

It's unfortunate perhaps that I raised on the forum, the one instance that did 'get to me' I suppose. I just wanted to get something 'off my chest'.

And as regards abuse on the internet in general, yes I've seen and experienced plenty. Not all of it is buried under the cloak of anonymity. I've had people be abusive towards me on the internet, people whose names and addresses I know, people whom I've met face-to-face. I could, I suppose, go round to their homes and 'sort them out', but I'm not that kind of bloke...

[1eyedjack]

Ory you may be one of the latest in a string of users to raise the issue, but you certainly are not alone, else I would never have raised it as an issue.

[oryctolagi]

The cases which have been raised on this forum are highly selective. Of course, otherwise they wouldn't have been raised: they are the 'exceptions that prove the rule'. The rule is, I still believe that BBO is a good environment to play in, and very few people spoil it. Does that make me a sort of 'Pollyanna'?

[barmar]

oryctolagi, on 2015-December-27, 07:09, said:

The rule is, I still believe that BBO is a good environment to play in, and very few people spoil it. Does that make me a sort of 'Pollyanna'?

This is probably correct, for the simple reason that if rudeness were the norm, BBO would not be as popular as it is. People wouldn't keep subjecting themselves to it if they were constantly subjected to bad behavior.

[Antrax]

Facebook uses a similar approach to enforce their guidelines. It's very often used vindictively and punishes the wrong people.

[oryctolagi]

Maybe I spoke too soon! Quite a lot of flaming on the Acol Club this evening - but not on the table I was playing at, we were all behaving impeccably: it was elsewhere in the Club. It was somewhat distracting, got to the point where I decided to report one individual to abuse@....

This is all the more reason why I really want there to be an option to turn off chat "->Club" when you're playing at a table. Is there any chance this might be implemented, any time soon? It would really enhance one's experience of BBO.

[OldPlayr]

oryctolagi, on 2015-December-29, 16:47, said:

Maybe I spoke too soon! Quite a lot of flaming on the Acol Club this evening - but not on the table I was playing at, we were all behaving impeccably: it was elsewhere in the Club. It was somewhat distracting, got to the point where I decided to report one individual to abuse@....

This is all the more reason why I really want there to be an option to turn off chat "->Club" when you're playing at a table. Is there any chance this might be implemented, any time soon? It would really enhance one's experience of BBO.

Just hide the chat window. I've done that for years. It makes for a much more enjoyable experience. I'll occasionally enable chat when playing with the robots, but they never say much

[oryctolagi]

OldPlayr, on 2015-December-30, 08:39, said:

Just hide the chat window. I've done that for years. It makes for a much more enjoyable experience. I'll occasionally enable chat when playing with the robots, but they never say much

No thanks. I find the chat - within the table - very useful, especially when playing with a casual partner (which is almost all the time, for me). You need to agree a convention, also complimenting partner or opponents on good play (or commiserating on bad luck) is only basic courtesy.

Also, very occasionally, when dummy, after the hand's played out I'll suggest to partner (or even opponent) a better line of play, which I spotted but they apparently missed. I hope they don't take it amiss.

Unfortunately, even in-table chat can get out of hand, as I discovered while playing yesterday! My two opponents started flaming each other, it got nasty, and in the end I quit the table without a word. Quite likely I've now been blacklisted by a few people (is there any way I can find out?) but I mean no-one any ill-will. I just think it's better to walk away from aggro instead of fighting back. I still hope that what happened yesterday is the exception rather than the rule.

[OldPlayr]

oryctolagi, on 2015-December-31, 03:24, said:

No thanks. I find the chat - within the table - very useful, especially when playing with a casual partner (which is almost all the time, for me). You need to agree a convention, also complimenting partner or opponents on good play (or commiserating on bad luck) is only basic courtesy.

Also, very occasionally, when dummy, after the hand's played out I'll suggest to partner (or even opponent) a better line of play, which I spotted but they apparently missed. I hope they don't take it amiss.

Unfortunately, even in-table chat can get out of hand, as I discovered while playing yesterday! My two opponents started flaming each other, it got nasty, and in the end I quit the table without a word. Quite likely I've now been blacklisted by a few people (is there any way I can find out?) but I mean no-one any ill-will. I just think it's better to walk away from aggro instead of fighting back. I still hope that what happened yesterday is the exception rather than the rule.

Two reasons why I play with chat hidden. Flaming and partners who second guess bidding and play after the fact.

[Vampyr]

oryctolagi, on 2015-December-31, 03:24, said:

Also, very occasionally, when dummy, after the hand's played out I'll suggest to partner (or even opponent) a better line of play, which I spotted but they apparently missed.

.......

Quite likely I've now been blacklisted by a few people

Very likely...

[oryctolagi]

OldPlayr, on 2015-December-31, 08:12, said:

...partners who second guess bidding and play after the fact.

Vampyr, on 2015-December-31, 10:55, said:

Very likely...

Well you are a vindictive lot, that's all I can say. I remind you that I did say "very occasionally". 99% of the time, I'm a firm adherent of Thumper's immortal advice: "If you can't say something nice, don't say nothing at all"

As it happens, the very person whom I felt obliged to call out (see above), joined the table I was playing at, last night. So evidently the Mods decided there weren't 'sufficient grounds'. He/she was a bit aggressive, but nothing to complain about - and played reasonably well, the one hand he/she played. I kept my mouth shut. He/she only stayed for 1½ hands, in any case.

So we can all be wrong at times.