[billw55]

OK, so I see a plurality for 2NT with a respectable minority for 2♥.

I was south and chose 2♥. This was passed out, and the two hands were:

---

North's actual hand is remarkably similar to Cyberyeti's construction in the first reply, and game is pretty good. Ten tricks were made for +170, but 3NT was the right spot, reached by about 1/3 of the field. I was not very proud of my bidding, and felt that in particular I should have added value for the diamond spots after partner's call in that suit. I was aware that 2NT could work well, but also that it could work poorly when partner has a minimum without a spade card. -1 for pessimism I guess.

[Zelandakh]

 kenrexford, on 2016-May-31, 17:35, said:

Heart-diamond two suiters are an Achille's heel. Strangely, one solution is to open a Roman 2H (5+H/4+C, intermediate), or 2D as the same thing (if allowed). That way, in this and many other auctions, you hace a built in solution for a lot of these patterns, a completely freed up 2C rebid. But, I digress.

It would certainly seem strange to me to describe the 2♥ opening as Roman (or 5+♥, 4+♣) if it is a known "solution" to use it for this hand. Strange to the poit of MI in fact. Freeing up the 2♣ rebid is a standard part of playing Roman 2M openings - see for a well-known example Ben's 2/1 system.

[wank]

 billw55, on 2016-June-01, 06:09, said:

OK, so I see a plurality for 2NT with a respectable minority for 2♥.

I was south and chose 2♥. This was passed out, and the two hands were:

---

North's actual hand is remarkably similar to Cyberyeti's construction in the first reply, and game is pretty good. Ten tricks were made for +170, but 3NT was the right spot, reached by about 1/3 of the field. I was not very proud of my bidding, and felt that in particular I should have added value for the diamond spots after partner's call in that suit. I was aware that 2NT could work well, but also that it could work poorly when partner has a minimum without a spade card. -1 for pessimism I guess.

there is no shame from missing game with 15 opposite 10, but partner doesn't have a 15 count. with all those pips his hand is worth more.` p needs to bid again.

[mycroft]

Offshape strong NTs are the bane of standard systems. You have to cater to them, somehow, but most of the system is designed around "partner won't have 15-17 semibalanced that can't upgrade to 18 very often". 2♥, which could be ♥xx-and-the-♣A, and could be this hand is hard to move over with this "slightly stronger than minimum, but could be much bigger".

I was going to bid 2NT, knowing that if I get passed in it, I really will want to have been in 2♥; and that if partner bids 3NT, I may still struggle. I wasn't going to bid 2♥ if you had bid 2NT and partner dropped a crappy 11 (you'll have to trust me on that, unfortunately :-). Maybe my field (which opens 11s-that-aren't-10s, and tends not to Rule-of-Anything) pushes me to the more aggressive call.

[Cyberyeti]

 wank, on 2016-June-01, 09:16, said:

there is no shame from missing game with 15 opposite 10, but partner doesn't have a 15 count. with all those pips his hand is worth more.` p needs to bid again.

What do you suggest he bids ? he has nice intermediates but Qx/Ax and an indifferent suit with no club stop.

[Zelandakh]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-01, 10:06, said:

What do you suggest he bids ? he has nice intermediates but Qx/Ax and an indifferent suit with no club stop.

2♠ springs to mind unless you are going to demand 3 of them for some reason. If you do demand 3 then the only choice would probably be 2NT, which perforce cannot promise a solid stopper (like RR's 2NT).

[wank]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-June-01, 10:17, said:

2♠ springs to mind unless you are going to demand 3 of them for some reason. If you do demand 3 then the only choice would probably be 2NT, which perforce cannot promise a solid stopper (like RR's 2NT).

yes 2 spades shows 3 as far as i'm concerned. this hand can bid 2nt perfectly happily. qx is a holding that needs to be declarer. if you had a small doubleton club and the points elsewhere, it would be 3C with this shape (a better question would be what do you with 2524 and a small doubleton diamond after 1h-1s-2c-2h and the answer would still be 3D - partner shouldn't have preference for clubs and a hand too bad to accept the invitation or he'd pass 2C, e.g. pass with a 4243 6 count).

[MrAce]

2 NT and 2♥ rebids are very close calls. If you bid 2♥ and pd has this you should take it as a flaw of your style. If you bid 2 NT like me and find pd with 12-13 and go down in 2 NT, you should also take it as flaw of your style. Both are fine with me.

What I disagree is the suggestion of reopening with 15 against the simple preference, even with all the pips. I'd rather bid 2 NT with this 10 vs an opener compared to bidding 2 NT by opener against simple preference 2♥ by partner. Of course in forums 2♥ will represent 6-10 hcp, where in real life it is actually also made with hands less than 6 hcp, particularly if repsonder has 3 card fit.

[Phil]

I would open the North hand 1N.

[wank]

 MrAce, on 2016-June-01, 11:32, said:

2 NT and 2♥ rebids are very close calls. If you bid 2♥ and pd has this you should take it as a flaw of your style. If you bid 2 NT like me and find pd with 12-13 and go down in 2 NT, you should also take it as flaw of your style. Both are fine with me.

What I disagree is the suggestion of reopening with 15 against the simple preference, even with all the pips. I'd rather bid 2 NT with this 10 vs an opener compared to bidding 2 NT by opener against simple preference 2♥ by partner. Of course in forums 2♥ will represent 6-10 hcp, where in real life it is actually also made with hands less than 6 hcp, particularly if repsonder has 3 card fit.

but on this auction responder's considerably more likely to have his full 6+ quota. the reasons for responding on crap are 1) scared of opps bidding spades (no) 2) hate hearts (no) 3) long spades , might make game on skimpy values (very unlikely to have 6 now. 5 ok, yes maybe)

[Cyberyeti]

 wank, on 2016-June-01, 12:27, said:

but on this auction responder's considerably more likely to have his full 6+ quota. the reasons for responding on crap are 1) scared of opps bidding spades (no) 2) hate hearts (no) 3) long spades , might make game on skimpy values (very unlikely to have 6 now. 5 ok, yes maybe)

So am I expected to pass 1♥ with a 4126 5-6 count ? I can easily hate hearts here but have to give false preference.

[wank]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-01, 13:03, said:

So am I expected to pass 1♥ with a 4126 5-6 count ? I can easily hate hearts here but have to give false preference.

no, you're expected to bid 1nt over 1h. but this is irrelevant. bidding on over 1h-1s-2d-2h opposite this hand works well. you'd get to 3c.

[Cyberyeti]

 wank, on 2016-June-01, 13:11, said:

no, you're expected to bid 1nt over 1h. but this is irrelevant. bidding on over 1h-1s-2d-2h opposite this hand works well. you'd get to 3c.

I'll bow to your knowledge of 2/1 but this seems to work really really badly when partner has a minimum hand with hearts and spades from the source material I can see.

Also I'd have thought 3♣ would be the normal 4SF type force unsure where to play rather than natural in this type of auction, say 5233/5224 with no club honour but enough to play game somewhere when partner shows extras with 2N.

[wank]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-01, 14:11, said:

I'll bow to your knowledge of 2/1 but this seems to work really really badly when partner has a minimum hand with hearts and spades from the source material I can see.

Also I'd have thought 3♣ would be the normal 4SF type force unsure where to play rather than natural in this type of auction, say 5233/5224 with no club honour but enough to play game somewhere when partner shows extras with 2N.

well yeah 1nt would be a gamble on that shape and 1S is the standard bid, but i think you'd play much better part-scores on average by bidding 1nt. if partner has enough to make game, he'll reverse and no doubt be surprised when you turn up with 4 card support.

but for sure there's no need for 3C to be 4th suit forcing after 1H-1S-2D-2H-2NT-3C - opener's shape is pretty closely defined. responder can bid spades again to suggest playing 4 on a 5-2 fit.

[Winstonm]

Any time it is imps I think you have to show signs of life when you have it - I would make a lie and bid 3H over 2D, assuming that is an invitational bid.

[kenrexford]

 Cyberyeti, on 2016-June-01, 14:11, said:

I'll bow to your knowledge of 2/1 but this seems to work really really badly when partner has a minimum hand with hearts and spades from the source material I can see.

Also I'd have thought 3♣ would be the normal 4SF type force unsure where to play rather than natural in this type of auction, say 5233/5224 with no club honour but enough to play game somewhere when partner shows extras with 2N.

Actually, this is a curious auction type. I hsve played (with a pro friend) that you in fact bid 1NT here with 4S/6C. If partner rebids red, 2S shows 4S/6+C.

[kenberg]

 kenrexford, on 2016-June-01, 19:38, said:

Actually, this is a curious auction type. I have played (with a pro friend) that you in fact bid 1NT here with 4S/6C. If partner rebids red, 2S shows 4S/6+C.

An interesting idea. I can definitely see the point.

[kenrexford]

 kenberg, on 2016-June-01, 20:01, said:

An interesting idea. I can definitely see the point.

I find these sorts of strange gems fascinating. This is a curious example to me because I have never thought of a similar parallel in any other auction. Some strange themes recur, but this seems to be a loner.

[mike777]

 billw55, on 2016-June-01, 06:09, said:

OK, so I see a plurality for 2NT with a respectable minority for 2♥.

I was south and chose 2♥. This was passed out, and the two hands were:

---

North's actual hand is remarkably similar to Cyberyeti's construction in the first reply, and game is pretty good. Ten tricks were made for +170, but 3NT was the right spot, reached by about 1/3 of the field. I was not very proud of my bidding, and felt that in particular I should have added value for the diamond spots after partner's call in that suit. I was aware that 2NT could work well, but also that it could work poorly when partner has a minimum without a spade card. -1 for pessimism I guess.

You cant open 1h planning on rebidding 2d after 1s, you can for see the rebid problems when you have a minimum hand type.

The solution is to open 1h and rebid 1nt or open 1nt depending on your ranges.

for me I would be fine to open 1h and rebid 1nt...perfect.

---

whatever you decided once you choose to rebid 2d you cannot pass 2h

btw2 as for the 4s 6c weak hand question, again opening 1nt or rebidding 1nt with opener's hand solves the problem.

I realize this is an old fashion idea but the whole problem on this hand was rebidding 2d. A problem that can be forseen.

[jogs]

 nige1, on 2016-May-31, 17:06, said:

I rank

• 2♥ = NAT. Slight underbid unless you are playing Gazzilli
• 2N = NAT. Overbid.
• 3♥ = NAT. Overbid,
• Pass = NAT. Inadvisable, especially at MPs.

Then put me up for 2♥. Only 2 points in partner's suit. 2NT is a clear overbid. 3♥ is an insane overbid. Shows 4/3 in spades/hearts. And the ♣J would be better in any of the other 3 suits.