[cherdano]

One more post: here is an interesting argument in favour of Brexit that I had not heard before:
http://www.vox.com/2...u-euro-disaster
Short version: a British exit would make it easier to save the Euro. The EU could become the set of countries who have adopted the Euro and could then much more of a "United states of Europe". This would make the enormous transfer payments from rich to poor regions a possibility that are necessary to save the Euro.

[fromageGB]

 cherdano, on 2016-June-22, 05:13, said:

Those who favour Brexit hope (I think) that the UK would still get access to the free market, without having to abide by EU regulations and the freedom of movement.

I think you might have this wrong. Many of us do not want a Norway model, and are convinced that UK will be able to trade quite happily independently. The EU has been a steadily declining part of our trade, and as one of the bigger economies I can't see much difficulty in continuing to buy goods from anywhere, and selling what little we do.

But it does not look like it is going to happen. Stock market manipulators have pushed the FTSE up 5% over the last few days as short sellers have cancelled their bets. Incidentally, this is another failure of the EU: they years ago planned to introduce a share trading transaction tax but haven't the balls to implement it. The vast majority of share trades are automatic, programs buying and selling for tiny gains, and a tax would stop that. Share prices are not moved by you and me (or pension funds etc) investing or withdrawing, but by gambling. Apparently when Tobin tax was tried in Sweden, bond trading fell by 85%. Sorry, it should be pet peeve thread. A bigger peeve is people selling shares they don't own, and the EU hasn't even looked at that.

[barmar]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-June-22, 01:52, said:

Can yes but not must. They can also be in the House of Lords.

What does that mean? The House of Lords is part of the Parliament.

[barmar]

 Trinidad, on 2016-June-22, 00:54, said:

Parliament is intended to oversee the government. In most (all except for the UK?) European countries, at the national level, government and parliament are separated.

I'm not really that familiar with European governments, but what does "government" mean if it doesn't include Parliament? Here in the US (at both the federal and state levels), the legislature is just one component of the government.

Is it like the distinction between the Board of Directors of a company and the executives of the company?

[helene_t]

 barmar, on 2016-June-22, 08:30, said:

Is it like the distinction between the Board of Directors of a company and the executives of the company?

Yes. This may be a language issue. On this side of the pond we say "government" when Americans say "cabinet". I don't think there is a British word for cabinet+parlament (would you also include the queen? what about the civil service, the military, the police and the courts?) but I am actually not sure about the British usage.

[Zelandakh]

 barmar, on 2016-June-22, 08:26, said:

What does that mean? The House of Lords is part of the Parliament.

This is true but Member of Parliament, which is the term used in the post I was responding to, generally refers only to those elected to the lower house.

[barmar]

 helene_t, on 2016-June-22, 08:36, said:

Yes. This may be a language issue. On this side of the pond we say "government" when Americans say "cabinet". I don't think there is a British word for cabinet+parlament (would you also include the queen? what about the civil service, the military, the police and the courts?) but I am actually not sure about the British usage.

Yeah, seems like a difference in language. We use "government" to mean all the organizations involved, split into the legislative, executive, and judicial branches. And "civil servant" usually means ordinary employees of the government (in ordinary corporations we call them "individual contributors"), not the elected and appointed officials who run it; while the officials are technically also employees (they get their paychecks from the same places), we don't usually use the term for them. Civil service jobs are the kind you can apply for just like a job in any other organization, they're often unionized, etc.

[cherdano]

Watched a bit of BBC last night. Remarkably, every politician who came on air said the essentially same thing: "This vote just goes to prove I have been right all along." That was before the results were known.

Of course, it also goes to show I have been right all along. It has always stunned me at how condescending and patronising a large number of English (*) politicians sound. I can just never quite lose the impression that they think they and their buddies from the same elite boarding schools and fancy private clubs in Oxbridge etc. know what's best for the country, and they just have to somehow get all the other idiots along in the ride.
Turns out much of rural England feels the same way as I do, and decided to vote against what most of their political leaders recommended them to vote for.

(*) I do mean English - Scottish politicians do seem to strike a different tone, and it's not just the accent.

Why do I post this? I am really curious whether others here I agree.

[cherdano]

But just in case it wasn't clear, the vote did prove I was right all along!

[shyams]

 cherdano, on 2016-June-24, 02:09, said:

Watched a bit of BBC last night. Remarkably, every politician who came on air said the essentially same thing: "This vote just goes to prove I have been right all along." That was before the results were known.

Of course, it also goes to show I have been right all along. It has always stunned me at how condescending and patronising a large number of English (*) politicians sound. I can just never quite lose the impression that they think they and their buddies from the same elite boarding schools and fancy private clubs in Oxbridge etc. know what's best for the country, and they just have to somehow get all the other idiots along in the ride.
Turns out much of rural England feels the same way as I do, and decided to vote against what most of their political leaders recommended them to vote for.

(*) I do mean English - Scottish politicians do seem to strike a different tone, and it's not just the accent.

Why do I post this? I am really curious whether others here I agree.

Agree with you.
There is an idiom about "cutting off the nose to spite the face". The political class were probably much despised by many.
The Brexit vote was a huge two-finger salute to all British (especially English) political class. However, I wouldn't be surprised if the UK (including the disaffected population who chose to vote Leave) is hurt more over the long term.

[Winstonm]

Two questions:

1) Will Scotland and Northern Ireland now exit the U.K. and independently join the E.U.?
2) As we all agree that time travel is impossible, why is it that a 52% of the voters were persuaded that taking the U.K. back in time was a solution to anything?

[Vampyr]

 Winstonm, on 2016-June-24, 12:50, said:

Two questions:

1) Will Scotland and Northern Ireland now exit the U.K. and independently join the E.U.?
2) As we all agree that time travel is impossible, why is it that a 52% of the voters were persuaded that taking the U.K. back in time was a solution to anything?

Possibly some people knew nothing about it, and simply thought that if the status quo was being challenged, there must be a good reason for it.

Anyway, while defending the status quo is much less sexy than calling for radical change, the Bremainers surely needn't have run a totally uninspiring campaign.

[1eyedjack]

 Winstonm, on 2016-June-24, 12:50, said:

1) Will Scotland and Northern Ireland now exit the U.K. and independently join the E.U.?

You can't join the EU just by filling in an application form.

[Vampyr]

 1eyedjack, on 2016-June-24, 14:43, said:

You can't join the EU just by filling in an application form.

Apparently some countries did.

[helene_t]

 Vampyr, on 2016-June-24, 14:59, said:

Apparently some countries did.

huh?

[mike777]

 1eyedjack, on 2016-June-24, 14:43, said:

You can't join the EU just by filling in an application form.

Your post reflects the ignorance Americans(me) and perhaps some Brits have as to just how do you define the EU, how does it work/answer to and what standard of measurement did the Brits use to measure success or failure of the EU.

For example is the EU;
1) a form of world government
2) a huge and growing country/State
3) some fancy complicated economic Nafta/WTO in other words some sort of fancy trade treaty but nothing more?
4) other?
-----------------------
---------------------

"Anyway, while defending the status quo is much less sexy than calling for radical change, the Bremainers surely needn't have run a totally uninspiring campaign."

I found Boris Johnson's Dad, a big Remain advocate, on tv this morning eloquent(sp), moving, and heartfelt. I cant speak for the rest of the campaign.

[Zelandakh]

 Winstonm, on 2016-June-24, 12:50, said:

1) Will Scotland and Northern Ireland now exit the U.K. and independently join the E.U.?

Scotland very likely, Northern Ireland probably not.

 Winstonm, on 2016-June-24, 12:50, said:

2) As we all agree that time travel is impossible, why is it that a 52% of the voters were persuaded that taking the U.K. back in time was a solution to anything?

Racism combined with sheep mentality. Nothing to be proud of in my country for this decision sadly.

[mike777]

Wow so those who voted to leave are racists with sheep mentality.

[StevenG]

 Zelandakh, on 2016-June-24, 17:12, said:

Racism combined with sheep mentality. Nothing to be proud of in my country for this decision sadly.

That is nonsense.

In general, the people who gain from the neoliberal/globalisation model voted to remain, those who have lost voted out. It's easy to sneer at the people who voted out when they are different from you (less educated, say), but you shouldn't ignore the reality that those differences disadvantage people far more than at any time in recent (post-war, say) history.

I don't think there is much racism left in this country. Doubtless, a small proportion voted for Brexit for racist reasons, but most see their world getting worse without any hope of change as things are - so they threw the dice.

I voted out. My vote was a conscious vote against neoliberalism. I suggest the vast majority of the other votes were also, in effect, a vote against neoliberalism, the difference being that they were instinctive rather than reasoned.

[Of course leaving the EU does not, in itself, change the neoliberal censensus in this country, but in time, it will be easier to change one country than a huge bloc.]

[cherdano]

 StevenG, on 2016-June-25, 01:53, said:

In general, the people who gain from the neoliberal/globalisation model voted to remain, those who have lost voted out.

How did UK pensioners lose from globalisation?