[dickiegera]

Dealer is North

South opens with a pass and before West can draw attention [did start to say something] North bids 1♦ and East [ME] passes.

I did not see South pass and knew North was dealer and was waiting for his bid. I knew that my bid was going to be Pass no matter what North did.

Director was called and ruled that my pass was an acceptance of North's bid and we should just continue as if South had never bid.

WAS THIS CORRECT?

WE ended up in 4♥ making 4. I believe the pass out of turn had any effect on the outcome.

Thank you

[blackshoe]

Nope.

Quote

Law 29:
A. Forfeiture of Right to Rectification
Following a call out of rotation, offender’s LHO may elect to call thereby forfeiting the right to any rectification.
B. Out-of-Rotation Call Canceled
Unless A above applies, a call out of rotation is canceled and the auction reverts to the player whose turn it was to call. Offender may make any legal call in proper rotation, but his side may be subject to the provisions for rectification in Law 30, 31 or 32.
C. Call Out of Rotation Is Artificial
If a call out of rotation is artificial, the provisions of Laws 30, 31 and 32 apply to the denomination(s) specified, rather than the denomination named.

So North's bid and East's pass are in accordance with the above, assuming West didn't want to accept South's pass, and assuming the pass was not artificial.

Quote

Law 30:
When a player has passed out of rotation and the call is canceled, the option in Law 29A not having been exercised, the following provisions apply (if the pass is artificial, see C below):
A. Before Any Player Has Bid
When a player has passed out of rotation before any player has bid, the offender must pass when next it is his turn to call and Law 23 may apply.
B. After Any Player Has Bid
1. When a pass out of rotation is made at offender’s RHO’s turn to call after any player has bid, offender must pass when next it is his turn to call.
2. When, after any player has bid, the offender passes out of rotation at his partner’s turn to call,
(a) the offender must pass whenever it is his turn to call, and Law 23 may apply, and
(b) offender’s partner may make any sufficient bid or may pass, but he may not double or redouble at that turn, and Law 23 may apply.
3. After any player has bid, a pass out of rotation at offender’s LHO’s turn to call is treated as a change of call and Law 25 applies.
C. When Pass Is Artificial
When a pass out of rotation is artificial or is a pass of an artificial call, Law 31, not Law 30, applies.

Here, 30A applies. South should have been required to pass at his first legal turn to call. I'm guessing he actually did pass. Am I right?

Quote

Law 23:
Whenever, in the opinion of the Director, an offender could have been aware at the time of his irregularity that this could well damage the non-offending side, the Director shall require the auction and play to continue (if not completed). When the play has been completed, the Director awards an adjusted score if he considers the offending side has gained an advantage through the irregularity.

Looks to me like this law does not apply in this case.

Absent any new evidence, looks to me like result stands.

[pran]

dickiegera, on 2017-January-19, 18:27, said:

Dealer is North

South opens with a pass and before West can draw attention [did start to say something] North bids 1♦ and East [ME] passes.

I did not see South pass and knew North was dealer and was waiting for his bid. I knew that my bid was going to be Pass no matter what North did.

Director was called and ruled that my pass was an acceptance of North's bid and we should just continue as if South had never bid.

WAS THIS CORRECT?

WE ended up in 4♥ making 4. I believe the pass out of turn had any effect on the outcome.

Thank you

Looks to me like neither North nor you noticed the pass out of turn by South.

Then

LAW 33 - SIMULTANEOUS CALLS said:

A call made simultaneously with one made by the player whose turn it was to call is deemed to be a subsequent call.

and as two calls can never be absolutely simultaneous this law is to be understood as a practical law, so I think it should apply in your situation.

The correct ruling is then that the sequence of events was: North 1♦ - South PASS (at East's turn to call) and East PASS.

Law 32B2 applies, South must repeat his pass, and the auction then continues normally. (Law 23 may apply!)

[sanst]

pran, on 2017-January-20, 03:26, said:

Then and as two calls can never be absolutely simultaneous this law is to be understood as a practical law, so I think it should apply in your situation.

I don't think this is right. Which calls are simultaneous?
Blackshoe's answer covers it quite extensively, but Law 23 can apply, though that doesn't seem to be the case here.

[pran]

sanst, on 2017-January-20, 06:18, said:

I don't think this is right. Which calls are simultaneous?
Blackshoe's answer covers it quite extensively, but Law 23 can apply, though that doesn't seem to be the case here.

North's and South's
(and East's is subsequent)

[RMB1]

pran, on 2017-January-20, 06:24, said:

North's and South's

It appears from OP that West saw South call before North.

[Zelandakh]

pran, on 2017-January-20, 03:26, said:

and as two calls can never be absolutely simultaneous this law is to be understood as a practical law, so I think it should apply in your situation.

This is the weirdest interpretation of the word "simultaneous" I have ever heard. Can North think for 5 minutes before making a call and it still be considered "simultaneous" to South's pass providing they do not notice it?

I think for most people, to be simultaneous the action of making the 2 calls must at least be happening at the same time even if, as you suggest, the calls do not hit the table in the same nanosecond. This is not a law like the unintended call "pause for thought" where the timing is taken from when the irregularity is noticed rather than when it actually occurred.

[blackshoe]

RMB1, on 2017-January-20, 07:06, said:

It appears from OP that West saw South call before North.

Which is why I decided the calls were not simultaneous.

[pran]

RMB1, on 2017-January-20, 07:06, said:

It appears from OP that West saw South call before North.

Sure, and there is no indication that
- North spent any significant time before selecting his opening bid
- North in any way was aware of South's pass out of turn before he made his own opening bid
- West had any possibility to react before North made his opening bid

On the contrary everything in OP tells me that events happened in such rapid succession that it is fair to consider them simultaneous for the purpose of applying Law 33.

Finally the application of Law 33 leads in my opinion to a result that seems fair to both sides while cancelling the POOT from South and let him eventually call without any restriction seems at the best questionable?


Added: A relevant question is whether East's PASS shall be deemed to forfeit all reactions on the opening pass out of turn by South (Law 11A).

But the way I understand OP this PASS by East was (also) made before any attention was called to the irregularity, and thus as seen by East was made in turn.

[dickiegera]

South was just quick to pass and North was not aware of South pass. Maybe 3 seconds or so time difference. [West took time to make sure who was the dealer]. I East did not not notice any delay on North's part.

I was aware that North was the dealer and knew that I was going to pass no matter what North did.

Don't recall what South bid after I passed , however we got to 4♥ EW making 4.

[pran]

dickiegera, on 2017-January-20, 09:35, said:

South was just quick to pass and North was not aware of South pass. Maybe 3 seconds or so time difference. [West took time to make sure who was the dealer]. I East did not not notice any delay on North's part.

I was aware that North was the dealer and knew that I was going to pass no matter what North did.

Don't recall what South bid after I passed , however we got to 4♥ EW making 4.

Apparently no damage to NOS then?