[FelicityR]

I have posted this in the intermediate and advanced forum - my level - although it is from an expert teams game I kibitzed recently. I would be grateful on players' comments on West's 4NT bid. I can understand it up to a point, but going 6 down doubled after South led ♣AKQJ stripping declarer and dummy of trumps and conceding a 1400 penalty when North/South have stopped in game and do not have a slam was disastrous.

I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to bid beyond 3♥, especially as partner had shown no interest, and given that South's 2NT relay bid usually indicates a good hand - but I recognise that it could also be psychic - was West bidding 4NT a bid too far and just very unlucky.

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Even though other kibitzers were watching this game, I feel it is perhaps prudent and discreet not to disclose who West was but even I was puzzled when he made this bid.

[wank]

i would have bid 4h over 2nt and retired from the auction.

i don't have a problem with taking 2 actions on the west hand after a 3H overcall, but the 2nd action for sure should be double. 4NT is for uneven 2 suiters - 7-5 on this auction most likely. 3 suiters double or cuebid as appropriate.

[rmnka447]

4 NT should be 2 places to play. I don't think 4 NT is right with 4 cards to nothing as your second suit. With a void, partner has to have some ♠ length. So it's quite possible that partner could take a preference on 3 cards and you'd end up in a 7 card fit.

Normally, a forcing 2 NT call (Ogust or feature) shows values and isn't psyched, so the opponents rate to have the balance of the points. If it was being psyched to mask a preemptive raise, then partner would have to have values and may well have taken a bid/call over 3 ♥.

The 3 ♥ bid is fine and has to be on a good suit and some values with the opponents purportedly showing strength, too. With most of the points in 3 hands, the 3 ♥ bidder could end up playing 3 ♥ with partner's hand being nothing but dross, so therefore needs some protection against a number. So the bid pretty well describes the hand as is.

After 4 ♠, I think the 3 ♥ bidder's choices are pass or double. With the actual hand, I'd think I'd pass and let partner double because the tricks are mostly in the long suit. Where I might double is if the hand were - KQJ10xx AKx xxxx with a more likely 3 tricks than the actual hand.

[neilkaz]

While west may actually be an expert, he certainly didn't show it here with this silly 4NT bid. He should bid either 3 or 4♥ his first time (I somewhat prefer 3) and then PASS. He can expect that declarer may have some issues with a bad trump split and his 4NT can and did result in going minus for a 4 figure number.

So often at all levels of bridge I see players sac'ing too often at the 5 level and then sometimes when they do, the opps make a gross error in bidding 5 over 5.

[nige1]

FelicityR, on 2017-April-06, 09:47, said:

I have posted this in the intermediate and advanced forum - my level - although it is from an expert teams game I kibitzed recently. I would be grateful on players' comments on West's 4NT bid. I can understand it up to a point, but going 6 down doubled after South led ♣AKQJ stripping declarer and dummy of trumps and conceding a 1400 penalty when North/South have stopped in game and do not have a slam was disastrous.
I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to bid beyond 3♥, especially as partner had shown no interest, and given that South's 2NT relay bid usually indicates a good hand - but I recognise that it could also be psychic - was West bidding 4NT a bid too far and just very unlucky.
Even though other kibitzers were watching this game, I feel it is perhaps prudent and discreet not to disclose who West was but even I was puzzled when he made this bid.

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Thank you, FelicityR but, IMO you'll get a wider range of replies, by postponing revelation of board details and results. I confess that I rank

• Double = T/O. An overbid and perhaps disastrous here, but your shape is appropriate,
• 4N = T/O. Good ♥s and limited support for another suit.
• Pass = NAT. but not a triumph opposite say ♠ x x x x ♥ J x ♦A Q x x x x ♣ x
• 5♣ = NAT. but implies 5+ ♣s.

[sfi]

Rmnka447 is spot on with the analysis of what is going on and what the bids mean. I think I would have doubled at the table to encourage partner to do something without reasonable spade values and with a bit of shape, but nothing besides pass or double would have occurred to me.

One of the big reasons 4NT is so bad is that you have defence and there is some chance that no game makes. You could simply be cashing 4 tricks in the red suits with no contribution from partner, and committing to declare at the 5 level on this auction just can't be a percentage action. Double achieves much the same result with the bonus of letting partner choose to defend on a suitable hand (where we get a positive) or one where bidding is going to be dreadful (where our possible negative score is less). Of course, there is the real chance of a redouble on this hand, but you still have more options than a 4NT bid.

[FelicityR]

nige1, on 2017-April-06, 19:15, said:

Thank you, FelicityR but, IMO you'll get a wider range of replies, by postponing revelation of board details and results.

Thank you Nigel for your advice. I will certainly take that on board in the future.

[RedSpawn]

FelicityR, on 2017-April-06, 09:47, said:

I have posted this in the intermediate and advanced forum - my level - although it is from an expert teams game I kibitzed recently. I would be grateful on players' comments on West's 4NT bid. I can understand it up to a point, but going 6 down doubled after South led ♣AKQJ stripping declarer and dummy of trumps and conceding a 1400 penalty when North/South have stopped in game and do not have a slam was disastrous.

I certainly wouldn't have been brave enough to bid beyond 3♥, especially as partner had shown no interest, and given that South's 2NT relay bid usually indicates a good hand - but I recognise that it could also be psychic - was West bidding 4NT a bid too far and just very unlucky.

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Even though other kibitzers were watching this game, I feel it is perhaps prudent and discreet not to disclose who West was but even I was puzzled when he made this bid.

I agree with wank. This hand has great auction "agitation" features and North and South are off to a head start. The heart suit has top choice honors and the diamond suit has respectable stoppers and a spade void is perfect to make this an excellent offense hand. Since my partner has already passed, my role and goal at this point is to disrupt the auction, and put a quick halt to the opponent's sharing of intelligence while parking my partnership's assets in a relatively safe spot.

For that reason, I would bid 4♥ to communicate where asset values and suit length are to my partner and to indicate a hand with nice shape. A 3 ♥ bid, while nice and true, is not disruptive enough to North and South's game plan.

Now, if the opposition bids 4 spade. I have to be very realistic about the tools in my toolkit. 4NT is typically reserved for minor suit sacrifices where you are 5/5 in the minors and have both length and decent suit quality in the minors. The 4NT bid doesn't necessarily take 5 ♥ out of play.

Look at West's hand very carefully. He doesn't have length in the minor suits and the suit quality of clubs is virtually nonexistent. He has 4 "baby" clubs and 3 diamonds.... so the tool West is planning to use does not apply to his hand's condition.

If you need a wrench for the job, you should not pull out a hammer and expect productivity.

He should pass 4 spades to see if his partner has the moxie to bid 5 ♥. IMHO, West does not have the goods alone to imperil the partnership at the 5 level and he certainly doesn't have the goods or values to launch a 4NT investigation. It puts his partner in a very awkward situation.

Retire the Superman cape at 4 ♥ and save the Lois Lane rescue for another day with a better hand.

[SteveMoe]

IIRC, some (experts) use 4NT to differentiate a sacrifice attempt from a forward going bid at the 5 level. It is entirely possible that 4N here is a weak raise to 5♥ while any other bid would be strong and forward going. FWIW, this is a hand worthy of 4♥ much sooner in the auction.

[Phil]

SteveMoe, on 2017-April-08, 08:10, said:

IIRC, some (experts) use 4NT to differentiate a sacrifice attempt from a forward going bid at the 5 level. It is entirely possible that 4N here is a weak raise to 5♥ while any other bid would be strong and forward going. FWIW, this is a hand worthy of 4♥ much sooner in the auction.

Better to reverse these.

[WellSpyder]

Phil, on 2017-April-08, 10:48, said:

Better to reverse these.

Whichever way round you do it, it only applies instead of the more normal "two places to play" (eg the 7-5 distribution suggested by wank) if you follow up the 4N by bidding 5♥ on the next round, which West didn't do.....