Help
At what point is a card legally played from Dummy?
1. Declarer calls for a card. Dummy picks up the wrong card from that suit (they mishear or whatever) and places it on the table.
a. Can Declarer ask for it to be taken back and replaced by what they actually wanted?
b. The next player, defender, quickly plays their card (visible to everyone) before Declarer has time to ask for it to be taken back. Is it now legally in play? i.e. too late to be taken back? I would presume so.
2. Declarer is, say, running a suit from hand. Dummy is left with, say, 10, 3, of that suit. He needs the 10 as an entry to another suit on the table. But, Dummy, who has been playing the cards for Declarer, plays the 10. Can Declarer ask for the card to be taken back, and replaced by the 3?
3. Dummy simply touches a card in Dummy. Must that card be played, or can Declarer ask for his intended card. (I'm assuming Defender has not followed to the play)
4. Anything I've left out?
Are rules applying to these situations Federation-specific, or world wide?
Thanks.
D.
Page 1 of 1
When is a card legally played from Dummy? Questions re the calling of and touching of Dummy's cards.
#1
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 274
- Joined: 2015-February-11
- Gender:Male
- Location:Ireland
Posted 2017-May-12, 05:42
#2
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 10,732
- Joined: 2006-May-18
- Gender:Not Telling
Posted 2017-May-12, 06:05
1. The card is played when it is named or touched bz declarer.
1a. Yes, the card taken by Dummy should be replaced by the correct one.
1b. No but once both sides have played to the next trick ut is now too late to be changed. In the case that the wrongly placed card is withdrawn the defender is allowed to change their card.
2. Yes, and it would be appropriate to give Dummy a warning not to participate in the play.
3. This is similar to #2. Only declarer can designate a card from the dummy.
4. The parts that you have missed out are Dummy spreading their hand at the wrong time (wrong hand, before the OL or when really a defender) and incomplete designations. So declarer might call for "the queen" and Dummy pick one queen up when there are 2 or more available. Another situation similar to #2 might develop when declarer asks Dummy to run a suit and then needs to stop, for example because they notice that they need the card as a late entry. This is a different situation from #2 because now Dummy is only doing what declarer asked and is not participating.
Finally these are Laws rather than regulations or elections and therefore valid worldwide.
One further point to make. If you page down to the bottom of the forum list you will find that there is a section dedicated to rules questions. I would suggest starting the next similar thread there.
1a. Yes, the card taken by Dummy should be replaced by the correct one.
1b. No but once both sides have played to the next trick ut is now too late to be changed. In the case that the wrongly placed card is withdrawn the defender is allowed to change their card.
2. Yes, and it would be appropriate to give Dummy a warning not to participate in the play.
3. This is similar to #2. Only declarer can designate a card from the dummy.
4. The parts that you have missed out are Dummy spreading their hand at the wrong time (wrong hand, before the OL or when really a defender) and incomplete designations. So declarer might call for "the queen" and Dummy pick one queen up when there are 2 or more available. Another situation similar to #2 might develop when declarer asks Dummy to run a suit and then needs to stop, for example because they notice that they need the card as a late entry. This is a different situation from #2 because now Dummy is only doing what declarer asked and is not participating.
Finally these are Laws rather than regulations or elections and therefore valid worldwide.
One further point to make. If you page down to the bottom of the forum list you will find that there is a section dedicated to rules questions. I would suggest starting the next similar thread there.
(-: Zel :-)
#3
- Secretary Bird
-
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 7,498
- Joined: 2003-July-12
- Gender:Male
- Location:Calgary, D18; Chapala, D16
Posted 2017-May-12, 13:32
Hello D:
Zel has everything basically right here, I'm just riffing off his penultimate paragraph - adding actual Laws references and quotes.
The short answer is "Laws 42 (Dummy's Rights), 43 (Dummy's Limitations), and 45 (Card Played)". The key to everything is L42A3: "Dummy plays the cards of the dummy as declarer's agent as directed". Dummy can't do anything in and of himself in the play; specifically, the same Law concludes: "(see Law 45F if dummy suggests a play)."
If you have that in your head, most of the questions get answered. Only declarer's decisions have right in law, and dummy's attempt to influence declarer's decisions can lead to a ruling.
[Mycroft: dummy should never touch or even lean to a card before declarer calls for it. That's hard to do. Best to try to not pay attention when partner is playing the hand - leads to more convivial sessions, too. If dummy has a habit of doing this - especially if he thinks he's stronger than his partner - call the TD and get this habit dealt with.] [Mycroft: note that if a card is touched *by declarer* in dummy's hand, unless it's clearly for arrangement or to reach another card, it must be played (45C3), but not dummy - dummy is only declarer's agent][Mycroft: Note that "run the diamonds" has no meaning in Law. Explicitly it has been ruled in most jurisdictions as being equivalent to "play a high diamond." Legally, declarer has to call the next one. The problem is that "nobody" knows this; and when declarer then "stops running" the diamonds, and defenders have defended "knowing" they're pitching to 5 tricks, and therefore have been misled and pitched wrong, it gets quite acrimonious. And the defenders feel jobbed when the TD agrees that, yes, declarer can "stop running" the diamonds because he wasn't "running them" in the first place, dummy just played a bunch of tricks that declarer didn't request. So please don't do this, and don't allow your partners to do this. It doesn't save any time anyway.]
Finally these are Laws rather than regulations or elections and therefore valid worldwide.
One further point to make. If you page down to the bottom of the forum list you will find that there is a section dedicated to rules questions. I would suggest starting the next similar thread there.
Zel has everything basically right here, I'm just riffing off his penultimate paragraph - adding actual Laws references and quotes.
The short answer is "Laws 42 (Dummy's Rights), 43 (Dummy's Limitations), and 45 (Card Played)". The key to everything is L42A3: "Dummy plays the cards of the dummy as declarer's agent as directed". Dummy can't do anything in and of himself in the play; specifically, the same Law concludes: "(see Law 45F if dummy suggests a play)."
If you have that in your head, most of the questions get answered. Only declarer's decisions have right in law, and dummy's attempt to influence declarer's decisions can lead to a ruling.
Zelandakh, on 2017-May-12, 06:05, said:
1. The card is played when it is named or touched by declarer. (Law 45B)
1a. Yes, the card taken by Dummy [must] be replaced by the correct one. (Law 45D)
1b. No but once both sides have played to the next trick it is now too late to be changed [Law 45D]. In the case that the wrongly placed card is withdrawn the defender is allowed to change their card. (again, Law 45D)
2. Yes (45D), and it would be appropriate to give Dummy a warning not to participate in the play. (42A1c, penalty appropriate 42B1)
1a. Yes, the card taken by Dummy [must] be replaced by the correct one. (Law 45D)
1b. No but once both sides have played to the next trick it is now too late to be changed [Law 45D]. In the case that the wrongly placed card is withdrawn the defender is allowed to change their card. (again, Law 45D)
2. Yes (45D), and it would be appropriate to give Dummy a warning not to participate in the play. (42A1c, penalty appropriate 42B1)
Quote
3. This is similar to #2. Only declarer can designate a card from the dummy.
Quote
4. The parts that you have missed out are Dummy spreading their hand at the wrong time (wrong hand, before the OL or when really a defender) [multiple Laws] and incomplete designations [Law 46]. So declarer might call for "the queen" and Dummy pick one queen up when there are 2 or more available.
Another situation similar to #2 might develop when declarer asks Dummy to run a suit and then needs to stop, for example because they notice that they need the card as a late entry. This is a different situation from #2 because now Dummy is only doing what declarer asked and is not participating.
Another situation similar to #2 might develop when declarer asks Dummy to run a suit and then needs to stop, for example because they notice that they need the card as a late entry. This is a different situation from #2 because now Dummy is only doing what declarer asked and is not participating.
Quote
Finally these are Laws rather than regulations or elections and therefore valid worldwide.
One further point to make. If you page down to the bottom of the forum list you will find that there is a section dedicated to rules questions. I would suggest starting the next similar thread there.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
#4
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 1,168
- Joined: 2012-May-17
- Gender:Male
- Location:Cincinnati Unit 124
- Interests:Family, Travel, Bridge Tournaments and Writing. Youth Bridge
Posted 2017-May-12, 18:38
2016 Laws of Duplicate Bridge (ACBL Source: http://web2.acbl.org...cate-Bridge.pdf)
LAW 41 (p 53)
COMMENCEMENT OF PLAY
...
D. Dummy’s Hand
...
Declarer plays both his hand and that of dummy.
LAW 42 (p 54)
DUMMY’S RIGHTS
A. Absolute Rights
...
3. Dummy plays the cards of the dummy as declarer’s agent as directed (see Law 45F if dummy suggests a play).
LAW 43 (p 55)
DUMMY’S LIMITATIONS
Except as Law 42 allows:
...
1. © Dummy must not participate in the play, nor may he communicate anything about the play to declarer.
...
LAW 45 (p 57)
CARD PLAYED
A. Play of Card from a Hand
Each player except dummy plays a card by detaching it from his hand and facing* it on the table immediately before him.
B. Play of a Card from Dummy
Declarer plays a card from dummy by naming the card, after which dummy picks up the card and faces it on the table. In playing from dummy’s hand,declarer may, if necessary, pick up the desired card himself.
C. Compulsory Play of Card
-1. A defender’s card held so that it is possible for his partner to see its face must be played to the current trick. If the defender has already made a legal play to the current trick, see Law 45E.
-2. Declarer must play a card from his hand if it is
---(a) held face up, touching or nearly touching the table; or
---(b) maintained in such a position as to indicate that it has been played.
-3. A card in the dummy must be played if it has been deliberately touched by declarer except for the purpose either of arranging dummy’s cards or of reaching a card above or below the card or cards touched.
-4. (a) A card must be played if a player names or otherwise designates it as the card he proposes to play.
---(b) Until his partner has played a card, a player may change an unintended designation if he does so without pause for thought. If an opponent has, in turn, played a card that was legal before the change in designation, that opponent may withdraw the card so played, return it to his hand, and substitute another (see Laws 47D and 16D1).
-5. A penalty card, major or minor, may have to be played (see Law 50).
D. Card Misplayed by Dummy
If dummy places in the played position a card that declarer did not name, the card must be withdrawn if attention is drawn to it before each side has played to the next trick, and a defender may withdraw and return to his hand a card played after the error but before attention was drawn to it. If declarer’s RHO changes his play, declarer may withdraw a card he had subsequently played to that trick (see Law 16D).
...
F. Dummy Indicates Card
After dummy’s hand is faced, dummy may not touch or indicate any card, except for purpose of arrangement, without instruction from declarer. If he does so, the Director should be summoned forthwith and informed of the action. Play continues. At the end of the play the Director shall award an adjusted score if he considers dummy suggested a play to declarer
and the defenders were damaged by the play suggested.
LAW 46 (p 60)
INCOMPLETE OR ERRONEOUS CALL
OF A CARD FROM DUMMY
A. Proper Form for Designating Dummy’s Card When calling a card to be played from dummy, declarer should clearly state both the suit and the rank of the desired card.
B. Incomplete or Erroneous Call of a Card
In case of an incomplete or erroneous call by declarer of the card to be played from dummy, the following restrictions apply, except when declarer’s different intention is incontrovertible:
-1. (a) If declarer in playing from dummy calls “high”, or words of like meaning, he is deemed to have called the highest card.
---(b) If he directs dummy to “win” the trick he is deemed to have called the lowest card that it is known will win the trick.
---© If he calls “low”, or words of like meaning, he is deemed to have called the lowest card.
-2. If declarer designates a suit but not a rank he is deemed to have called the lowest card of the suit indicated.
-3. If declarer designates a rank but not a suit
---(a) In leading, declarer is deemed to have continued the suit in which dummy won the preceding trick, provided there is a card of the designated rank in that suit.
---(b) In all other cases declarer must play a card from dummy of the designated rank if he can legally do so. If there are two or more such cards that can be legally played, declarer must designate which is intended.
-4. If declarer calls a card that is not in dummy, the call is void and declarer may designate any legal card.
-5. If declarer indicates a play without designating either a suit or a rank (as by saying “play anything” or words of like meaning), either defender may designate the play from dummy.
LAW 41 (p 53)
COMMENCEMENT OF PLAY
...
D. Dummy’s Hand
...
Declarer plays both his hand and that of dummy.
LAW 42 (p 54)
DUMMY’S RIGHTS
A. Absolute Rights
...
3. Dummy plays the cards of the dummy as declarer’s agent as directed (see Law 45F if dummy suggests a play).
LAW 43 (p 55)
DUMMY’S LIMITATIONS
Except as Law 42 allows:
...
1. © Dummy must not participate in the play, nor may he communicate anything about the play to declarer.
...
LAW 45 (p 57)
CARD PLAYED
A. Play of Card from a Hand
Each player except dummy plays a card by detaching it from his hand and facing* it on the table immediately before him.
B. Play of a Card from Dummy
Declarer plays a card from dummy by naming the card, after which dummy picks up the card and faces it on the table. In playing from dummy’s hand,declarer may, if necessary, pick up the desired card himself.
C. Compulsory Play of Card
-1. A defender’s card held so that it is possible for his partner to see its face must be played to the current trick. If the defender has already made a legal play to the current trick, see Law 45E.
-2. Declarer must play a card from his hand if it is
---(a) held face up, touching or nearly touching the table; or
---(b) maintained in such a position as to indicate that it has been played.
-3. A card in the dummy must be played if it has been deliberately touched by declarer except for the purpose either of arranging dummy’s cards or of reaching a card above or below the card or cards touched.
-4. (a) A card must be played if a player names or otherwise designates it as the card he proposes to play.
---(b) Until his partner has played a card, a player may change an unintended designation if he does so without pause for thought. If an opponent has, in turn, played a card that was legal before the change in designation, that opponent may withdraw the card so played, return it to his hand, and substitute another (see Laws 47D and 16D1).
-5. A penalty card, major or minor, may have to be played (see Law 50).
D. Card Misplayed by Dummy
If dummy places in the played position a card that declarer did not name, the card must be withdrawn if attention is drawn to it before each side has played to the next trick, and a defender may withdraw and return to his hand a card played after the error but before attention was drawn to it. If declarer’s RHO changes his play, declarer may withdraw a card he had subsequently played to that trick (see Law 16D).
...
F. Dummy Indicates Card
After dummy’s hand is faced, dummy may not touch or indicate any card, except for purpose of arrangement, without instruction from declarer. If he does so, the Director should be summoned forthwith and informed of the action. Play continues. At the end of the play the Director shall award an adjusted score if he considers dummy suggested a play to declarer
and the defenders were damaged by the play suggested.
LAW 46 (p 60)
INCOMPLETE OR ERRONEOUS CALL
OF A CARD FROM DUMMY
A. Proper Form for Designating Dummy’s Card When calling a card to be played from dummy, declarer should clearly state both the suit and the rank of the desired card.
B. Incomplete or Erroneous Call of a Card
In case of an incomplete or erroneous call by declarer of the card to be played from dummy, the following restrictions apply, except when declarer’s different intention is incontrovertible:
-1. (a) If declarer in playing from dummy calls “high”, or words of like meaning, he is deemed to have called the highest card.
---(b) If he directs dummy to “win” the trick he is deemed to have called the lowest card that it is known will win the trick.
---© If he calls “low”, or words of like meaning, he is deemed to have called the lowest card.
-2. If declarer designates a suit but not a rank he is deemed to have called the lowest card of the suit indicated.
-3. If declarer designates a rank but not a suit
---(a) In leading, declarer is deemed to have continued the suit in which dummy won the preceding trick, provided there is a card of the designated rank in that suit.
---(b) In all other cases declarer must play a card from dummy of the designated rank if he can legally do so. If there are two or more such cards that can be legally played, declarer must designate which is intended.
-4. If declarer calls a card that is not in dummy, the call is void and declarer may designate any legal card.
-5. If declarer indicates a play without designating either a suit or a rank (as by saying “play anything” or words of like meaning), either defender may designate the play from dummy.
Be the partner you want to play with.
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
Trust demands integrity, balance and collaboration.
District 11
Unit 124
Steve Moese
#5
- Group: Advanced Members
- Posts: 17,718
- Joined: 2006-April-17
- Gender:Male
- Location:Rochester, NY
Posted 2017-May-13, 12:40
I would add a couple of things: it is currently illegal for anyone except dummy or declarer to touch dummy's cards (Law 7). That will change when the new laws go into effect later this year. Also, there is a WBFLC minute that officially deprecates (but does not make illegal) the instruction "run the diamonds" or similar.
--------------------
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
As for tv, screw it. You aren't missing anything. -- Ken Berg
I have come to realise it is futile to expect or hope a regular club game will be run in accordance with the laws. -- Jillybean
#6
- Group: Full Members
- Posts: 57
- Joined: 2009-July-21
Posted 2017-May-14, 02:14
blackshoe, on 2017-May-13, 12:40, said:
I would add a couple of things: it is currently illegal for anyone except dummy or declarer to touch dummy's cards (Law 7). That will change when the new laws go into effect later this year. Also, there is a WBFLC minute that officially deprecates (but does not make illegal) the instruction "run the diamonds" or similar.
The WBFL minute referred to above (which I don't seem to be able to find anymore) says that the "next diamond" becomes a played card when declarer's RHO plays to the next trick. Thus, declarer could decide to stop running the diamonds before that play occurs.
Peter
Page 1 of 1