[el mister]

Is it playable to have all doubles as penalty after we have opened 2♣ strong in a natural system? Had a few opps chancing their arm recently with some light lead-directors that it would have been nice to penalise.
One particular auction went 2♣ 3♣ pass 3♥ back to me, holding 21+ with six good hearts [possibly opps had a mixup over what their 3♣ showed]. We've not discussed X here but I thought 'I am smashing this to bits rar now' was a reasonable interpretation, but pard took it as show me what you've got and we bid a normal game.

Maybe it's best for strong hand to just pass for the re-opening X and go from there as a more flexible approach?

[helene_t]

Penalty double combined with pass showing a hand that would have made a take-out double is playable.

It is more efficient to play pass as either penalty or take-out, with double being "optional", but it means that you can't penalize when the player in direct seat has a take-out double.

One thing to consider is whether it is more important to penalize when both of you have a semi-defensive hand, or when one has a trump stack and the other is short in trumps.

[steve2005]

It certainly is playable. Some people have figured out that that strong 2♣ especially those who open hands without much defense are vulnerable to interference just as strong club systems are.

When you make a penalty double at low level there will always be a danger that you could have a better score by bidding on as you won't know how well your hands fit.
If you don't have the ability to double your giving free license for people to overcall which inevitably makes life more difficult.
So it is important to discuss what sort of hand will make a pen X and when to leave it in Just as strong club people do.

[Tramticket]

I believe that penalty double is the default option here if in undiscussed. Pass is forcing to game for us, so there is no need to double to keep the auction alive.

I'm not arguing that penalty doubles are optimal, but it is a simple and playable method.

[LBengtsson]

2♣ - 3♣ - X. X = garbage, then easy for opener to know what is best next

[Stephen Tu]

Garbage with what distributional requirements, and how many trumps minimum?

I don't know that it's always easy for opener to know what is best if the garbage distribution is unspecified. But if you make restrictions on the distribution then pass can't promise values. In every other situation against preempts we use takeout doubles, can someone explain why it should be reversed after 2c? Double by responder makes it hard when opener wants to make a takeout double. Or to know when to leave it in if he doesn't know how many trumps they have unless he has stack himself.

For fourth seat interference, at least pass is forcing so player with stack doesn't need to fear partner passing it out and playing undoubled.

Also, cue bid by opener should be natural IMO, exposing psych or misbid.

[LBengtsson]

garbage = 0-2hcp 4432, 4443. 5422. 5332 no stiff, opener on own

[Stephen Tu]

I don't see how that helps. If I'm opener after 2c (3c) dbl and looking at say 4432 24 count, how do I know that we don't have 9 cd spade fit and 4s rolls in? That opps have 9 cd fit and penalty is inadequate? How do we get there if opener's suit bids are presumed 5+? On the other hand if responder is 2335 or 2344 prob want to penalize. To me easier if pass, let opener double, then responder can leave in with length. And responder can double with takeout-ish shape without very long suits and opener can leave in with good trumps.

[fromageGB]

It makes the difficulty of such a method even more impossible if the overcalls are ambiguous. For example, 2♣ (2♠) where overcaller has either clubs (2♠ is a puppet to clubs, if left) or both reds (he takes the clubs (if left) out to diamonds). Now it is impossible for a "garbage" responder to know what his holding is worth.

My choice of defender action is pass/double to show/deny "values", ie your requirement for a positive unopposed reply to 2♣. Then opener can call as he deems appropriate.

[GrahamJson]

I guess I’m old fashioned but I prefer all doubles being for penalties after a 2C opener. Apart from anything else oppo, at least some oppo, will overcall on almost anything in order to disrupt your bidding. This means that it is quite possible for you to have length in the suit overcalled. If you can’t double to show that you could find yourself in a position where you have no sensible bid available.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

the first question and also the most important question to discuss with your partner:
how high does the 2C opener generate a forcing pass.
If you play 2C as gf, there is no limit, but if it is your only forcing opening,
you may want to have a upper limit.
If pass is forcing, than both variants are playable, T/O is more flexible, you will
more often have shortage than length.
And if Pass is forcing and you pass, partner has to reopen, no matter, what he holds,
the only choice he has, is how.
With nondiscriptive bal. garbage he will go for the double, the main reason: if gives
opener the most room.
Finnally: Going for your own game, instead of always going for blood is better in the
long run, you will not pick up all the penalties, but enough, and if they make frisky
lead directors, it wont help them as much as serious / real lead directors.

With kind regards
Marlowe