[gwnn]

off-topic:
The one thing that I'd change about bridge is stopping or reducing mixed events. I haven't played a lot of mixed events, but from what I saw and heard, they seem to bring out an inordinate amount of misogyny and general ugliness. I could make an argument for it (women are underrepresented in top bridge so these events help them get more experience/exposure, and they will generally be able to find better partners than themselves), but I'm not convinced...

And I know that almost no one cares about what I'd change about bridge. Mostly thinking out loud.

[barmar]

hrothgar, on 2019-November-06, 13:32, said:

I think that men pretending to be transwomen should be dealt with like any other type of cheater.

I suspect this is the kind of problem that only non-trans people can come up with, much like the hysteria over men claiming female gender identity so they could invade ladies' restrooms.

The stigma attached to being trans is significant, and it's hard to imagine anyone subjecting themselves to this just so they can enter a women's bridge tournament. It would be like deliberately amputating a limb so you could enter the Special Olympics.

[barmar]

pescetom, on 2019-November-06, 13:44, said:

You're right, but see my point above - do WBF or EBU and others officially recognise that overall women are intrinsically weaker at bridge than men?
If not, then should not all events be open, and why do we tolerate male / female / mixed distinctions with an implicit hierarcy?
It's a complex and delicate situation already, without such reticence.

In the early days there probably was the stereotype that men are better than women. And at the time, this was consistent with the rest of society, which was full of gender discrimination.

These days, I think the primary reason why women's and mixed events exist is for social reasons (bridge is a social activity, even at the tournament level), and perhaps as a nod to tradition. Male-only events are not allowed because it violates discrimination laws; female-only events presumably don't violate these laws because men have never been a class that was discriminated against.

Mixed events are particularly interesting, IMHO. There are probably many players who prefer to play with partners of the same sex, and this forces them to go out of their comfort zone and find a more diverse set of partners. At least we've stopped the old practice of putting all the men in the same compass directions, which did propagate the stereotype that there's a difference in ability.

[bfskinner]

Here is something I have both seen and experienced. There are some men at tournaments in the American South who address women using male pronouns. I don't know what point they are trying to make, or whether it is intended to upset an opponent, but I know it is deliberate and not an accidental mistake (since I appear CIS feminine). I find myself wondering whether they are confused, making a political statement, or doing something that merits calling a director.

[pescetom]

barmar, on 2019-November-07, 11:29, said:

In the early days there probably was the stereotype that men are better than women. And at the time, this was consistent with the rest of society, which was full of gender discrimination.

These days, I think the primary reason why women's and mixed events exist is for social reasons (bridge is a social activity, even at the tournament level), and perhaps as a nod to tradition. Male-only events are not allowed because it violates discrimination laws; female-only events presumably don't violate these laws because men have never been a class that was discriminated against.

I'm sure you're right about the early days and tradition. But if that really is all there is to it and men have no advantage, then it is a disgrace that male-male / female-female / mixed categories exist at all, and surprising that women (at least) put up with it, let alone participate in female-only events.

barmar, on 2019-November-07, 11:29, said:

Mixed events are particularly interesting, IMHO. There are probably many players who prefer to play with partners of the same sex, and this forces them to go out of their comfort zone and find a more diverse set of partners. At least we've stopped the old practice of putting all the men in the same compass directions, which did propagate the stereotype that there's a difference in ability.

Here in any mixed pair the woman always seems to sit South, which says much about Italian society. I've no idea if it was once obligatory to sit that way or the other way round.

[femmwench]

"So I and a group of friends who are decent county players but not international stars in the mens game decide to start identifying as female and turning up at womens events."

And this is male privilege at its worst. As someone who numbers transgendered people as dear friends, I cannot tell you how horrifying this is to me. If you're willing to have sexual reassignment surgery, and lose that male privilege, then feel free to play in the women's games. The fact that you make it a joke speaks volumes about you and your friends.

[mikestar13]

There is always the possibility in bridge of doing away with gendered events entirely. This would end the possibility of a born male identifying as female solely for the purpose of entering a womens event. I know of no cases where this has actually happened, however. The player cited above may well identify as female in other/most/all areas of life besides bridge., is there any evidence this is not the case?

[Trinidad]

Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-06, 07:41, said:

So I and a group of friends who are decent county players but not international stars in the mens game decide to start identifying as female and turning up at womens events.

Sad.

Rik

[PeterAlan]

femmwench (et al), I completely understand your horrified reaction. Cyberyeti can speak for himself, but giving him the benefit of the doubt I had read it as no more than a clumsily-worded attempt to pose an entirely hypothetical scenario, by way of introducing the question that followed; ie as:

Cyberyeti, on 2019-November-06, 07:41, said:

[Suppose that] I and a group of friends who are decent county players but not international stars in the mens game decide to start identifying as female and turning up at womens events.

Is there a policy on this at world level ? and have various ROs considered it ?

[nige1]

gwnn, on 2019-November-07, 10:15, said:

off-topic:The one thing that I'd change about bridge is stopping or reducing mixed events. I haven't played a lot of mixed events, but from what I saw and heard, they seem to bring out an inordinate amount of misogyny and general ugliness. I could make an argument for it (women are underrepresented in top bridge so these events help them get more experience/exposure, and they will generally be able to find better partners than themselves), but I'm not convinced....

Gwnn is right that problems would be much reduced if all Bridge events were open. But I've played in lots of mixed events and they seem more sociable, friendly, and relaxed than segregated events.

[gwnn]

nige1, on 2019-November-08, 04:00, said:

Gwnn is right that problems would be much reduced if all Bridge events were open. But I find mixed events more sociable, friendly, and relaxed than segregated events.

gwnn didn't say any of that. gwnn is strongly in favour of women's events (and women choosing between those and open ones), but mostly against mixed events. I have it on good authority that gwnn doesn't appreciate you misquoting him.

[hrothgar]

mikestar13, on 2019-November-07, 22:32, said:

The player cited above may well identify as female in other/most/all areas of life besides bridge., is there any evidence this is not the case?

I think that the framing of Cyberyeti's questions strongly implies that this is not th case

(Initially) there was no discussion about how players or members of the team identified.

Rather, Cyberyeti framed this as "Here's a group of players that aren't good enough to win Open evens who are now considering entering Women's events instead"
Perhaps this is simply poorly worded, but this strikes me as off

A much less loaded way to frame this question would have been

"Should a woman who transitioned from male to female now be allowed to compete in women's events?"

[Vampyr]

nige1, on 2019-November-08, 04:00, said:

Gwnn is right that problems would be much reduced if all Bridge events were open. But I've played in lots of mixed events and they seem more sociable, friendly, and relaxed than segregated events.

I enjoy mixed events too. I don’t particularly like the European model of mixed teams though, where you must have a mixed pair at each table.

[pescetom]

gwnn, on 2019-November-08, 04:09, said:

gwnn is strongly in favour of women's events

can gwnn tell us why?

[hrothgar]

pescetom, on 2019-November-08, 08:08, said:

can gwnn tell us why?

I am not gwnn, however, from my perspective the salient issue is not the existence of women's events per se, but rather whether Women's events are drawing enough participation to continue to support.

My impression is that at the International level these events remain popular.
I believe that cancelling these events would mean less high level bridge would get played.
I would like to see them continue.

It's unclear to me whether this is true for the ACBL Nationals.

[gwnn]

pescetom, on 2019-November-08, 08:08, said:

can gwnn tell us why?

For the same reasons as his support of women's chess events. Despite the fact that at club level, there is approximate gender parity, women are underrepresented in high-level bridge. Having an extra event for them can incentivise them taking up high-level bridge, which ultimately makes the field larger and the sport stronger.

As I sketched in my first post, a similar case can be made for mixed events, but due to practical issues* and the associations created, I am against them. Again, there are lots of people who like them, so my opinion obviously shouldn't be the final say (not that it would be without this sentence).

* I'm talking about things like men hand-hogging, the men sitting NE ganging up on the two female SW's, men doing postmortems together making sexist jokes, ... Maybe my impression on how often this happens is off. I'm very open to that possibility as well.

[Vampyr]

gwnn, on 2019-November-08, 08:49, said:

* I'm talking about things like men hand-hogging, the men sitting NE ganging up on the two female SW's, men doing postmortems together making sexist jokes, ... Maybe my impression on how often this happens is off. I'm very open to that possibility as well.

I am surprised by this; my experience is different to yours.

[barmar]

pescetom, on 2019-November-07, 13:42, said:

I'm sure you're right about the early days and tradition. But if that really is all there is to it and men have no advantage, then it is a disgrace that male-male / female-female / mixed categories exist at all, and surprising that women (at least) put up with it, let alone participate in female-only events.

In ACBL, the women's events have been having trouble for years getting players to play in them, and they've been getting phased out (the Wagar Teams was converted to Pairs a year or two ago). As I understand it, the only reason we still have them is because there are still international women's events, and we use the national events as part of our selection process.

[barmar]

Vampyr, on 2019-November-08, 06:43, said:

I enjoy mixed events too. I don’t particularly like the European model of mixed teams though, where you must have a mixed pair at each table.

I think ACBL also requires this.

It makes sense given my idea above about forcing players who are mostly biased towards partnering with players of the same sex to expand their horizons. Otherwise you'll just get a male partnership and a female partnership.

And if there are lots of teams set up like this, I think you'll run into teams arranging their seating to pit the men against men and women against women. The whole social aspect of mixing up the sexes is gone -- you kind of end up with Open Room = male, Closed Room = female.

[pescetom]

gwnn, on 2019-November-08, 08:49, said:

For the same reasons as his support of women's chess events. Despite the fact that at club level, there is approximate gender parity, women are underrepresented in high-level bridge. Having an extra event for them can incentivise them taking up high-level bridge, which ultimately makes the field larger and the sport stronger.

As I sketched in my first post, a similar case can be made for mixed events, but due to practical issues* and the associations created, I am against them.

Thanks.
Could you tell us more about how this all works out in chess, an individual mind game? Is it accepted that men have an advantage and if so, is there any kind of evidence? Do they have absolute / mixed / mens events as well as womens?