[manudude03]

The auction starts (3H)-P-(3S), 3S is natural and forcing, how do you play double here?
I realise options 2 and 4 seem kinda similar, but option 4 is meant as more as sussing out a psyche while option 2 has honest expectations of possibly playing it there.

Edit: Must have been too late for me, posted it at 1:55am, but meant takeout as takeout of both (i.e both minors)

[helene_t]

I think this has come up somewhere (here? IMP? MSC? BridgeWinners?) and the concensus was that it is t/o of hearts.

[Tramticket]

Are you asking: "What do you play?" or "What would be the best agreement?"

As a general principle, we don't make penalty doubles of forcing bids. We haven't discussed this specific sequence and I probably would not double and leave partner scratching her head.

If we had discussed the bid, I can see a very good case for this double showing spades and being penalty orientated. Opponents do psyche in this situation. I see options 2 and 4 as identical in practice.

Helene's take-out of hearts also makes sense.

[gwnn]

You have to specify whether "takeout" means takeout of hearts, spades, or hearts+spades.

Takeout of spades obviously makes no sense and both minors is a waste of a bid (too low anyway - if they really aren't psyching, we want to preempt them). I think takeout of hearts if a fine agreement.

But I think overall I like
X = 5 spades,
4m = NLM
4H = both minors maybe
4S = natural

and waiting 1 round to double for takeout. Maybe a bit naive, but after all, RHO could have raised to x hearts to begin with so we haven't really lost that much.

[FelicityR]

I actually don't like the idea of changing the meaning of bids just to suit a specific situation that might crop up very rarely when the opponents misbehave. As other commentators have said, double here shows a takeout of ♥s: that seems a sensible compromise.

[Tramticket]

FelicityR, on 2019-November-11, 06:24, said:

I actually don't like the idea of changing the meaning of bids just to suit a specific situation ...

Yes, fair enough.

FelicityR, on 2019-November-11, 06:24, said:

As other commentators have said, double here shows a takeout of ♥s: that seems a sensible compromise.

It is a sensible meaning, I agree.

But, for me, a take-out of hearts is certainly changing the meaning based on specific conditions. We play (1♥)-Pass-(1♠)-Dbl to show both minors and if we are being consistent this double should also show both minors - which is less useful, even if it is consistent.

[helene_t]

gwnn, on 2019-November-11, 04:08, said:

But I think overall I like
X = 5 spades,
4m = NLM
4H = both minors maybe
4S = natural

and waiting 1 round to double for takeout. Maybe a bit naive, but after all, RHO could have raised to x hearts to begin with so we haven't really lost that much.

Do you really want to play 4m as NLM here? If they aren't psyching, a minor 1-suiter would have high frequency and be a useful bid. And if X shows spades, some NLM hands could use that.

I suppose it has merits to play 4♣ as both minors, btw.

[gwnn]

Yep I really want to play 4m as NLM. If they aren't psyching, I usually will have a pass or will be happy to bid 5m to preempt them.