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Coronavirus Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it

#421 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-April-17, 03:38

View Postshyams, on 2020-April-16, 18:16, said:

My point was not about death rates (i.e. % of some denominator) but about the absolute numbers of deaths from coronavirus.

The reason for my assertion is that the Govt. had previously said something like "we would have done a good job if the epidemic results in 20k deaths". We are at 13,729 (hospital) Covid deaths and are reporting some 700-900 per day. At this rate, we will cross 20k within a week! I do realise that models tend to specify range of outcomes and that holding the Govt. to account on one fixed number is not exactly fair. However, they quoted the number; and it is acceptable to criticise the Govt. for doing much worse.

The UK officials could learn something from the Grifter in Chief. After initially saying the number of COVID-19 cases would soon drop to 0, and being roundly criticized for this ridiculous lie, he was touting 1 million to 2 million possible deaths (which was only projected to happen if the US did absolutely nothing to mitigate the spread of the virus and obviously many locations and states were already doing significant mitigation so those numbers were highly unlikely to happen.

And then he gave himself plenty of room by then implying that 100K to 240K would be doing a great if not perfect job in fighting the virus. Obviously the UK officials should have said something like 500K to 1.5M deaths were expected but because they were going to do a great job, 100K to 200K might be attainable. Underpromise and overdeliver.
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#422 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-April-17, 08:46

View Posto__nikos, on 2020-April-17, 02:35, said:

I am new in the discussion. Do you know if the attached page from the Chinese author Cixin Liu book "The Dark Forest" (edited 2008) has anything related to Coronavirus? Is it a coincidence?Posted Image


Some other writer was also credited with a viral epidemic originating in China, I think even Wuhan, in a book that was 30-40 years old (?), though for the life of me I cannot remember the author's name. Sadly, coronavirus is science fact, not fiction, and neither was the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918, and the only science fiction writer I know from that era was H.G. Wells.
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#423 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-April-17, 08:52

View Posto__nikos, on 2020-April-17, 02:35, said:

I am new in the discussion. Do you know if the attached page from the Chinese author Cixin Liu book "The Dark Forest" (edited 2008) has anything related to Coronavirus?


It does not

Quote

Is it a coincidence?


Coincidence implies some random element

This looks like a deliberate attempt by a racist crank to gin up a ridiculous conspiracy theory.

1. Coronavirus is not genetically engineered
2. It does not target specific genotypes
3. There are any number of a science fiction stories that feature the same basic concept
Alderaan delenda est
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#424 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-April-17, 15:50

Faye Flam at Bloomberg: Any Good News on Coronavirus This Week? Actually, Yes

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Scientists all over the world are working to understand, contain and cure Covid-19. Here’s a quick look at four important advances that made headway this week.

A positive trial for an antiviral drug

Yesterday a rare bit of good news emerged from a clinical trial at the University of Chicago. STATnews reported that the antiviral drug Remdesivir appeared to have some fighting force against Covid-19. The trial included 125 people, 113 of them classified as having a severe case of the virus.

All got the drug; there was no placebo group. Most were released from the hospital less than a week later, and only 2 died – an unusually low number given how deadly the disease has been in those who get severely ill. Other trials around the world, if they go this well, should lead to quick FDA approval for the drug, manufactured by Gilead Sciences.

Long before the current Covid-19 pandemic, scientists at the University of North Carolina and Gilead began developing this drug in anticipation of new coronavirus epidemic. Two other deadly outbreaks that occurred this century, SARS and MERS, were both caused by coronaviruses from bats, as with Covid-19.

One of the developers of the drug, Timothy Sheahan of the University of North Carolina, told me in an interview last January that the drug was designed to interfere with enzymes SARS and MERS need to replicate themselves. At the time, his group had just started to see impressive results in animal studies of MERS.

The only human trials before the current outbreak were in Ebola patients in the Democratic Republic of Congo. While it didn’t work against Ebola as well as other therapies, it did pass basic safety standards.

The drug has been given sporadically for Covid-19. Anecdotal reports abound of people near death bouncing back after getting the drug. And even this clinical trial has to be viewed with cautious optimism, since it was small, and wasn’t compared with a placebo. But more trials are underway around the world – including 2,400 participants with severe disease and 1,600 patients whose symptoms are moderate.

New clues to how the virus spread from China

Genetic sleuths are digging deep into the origin and early spread of the Covid-19 virus, tracking small mutations in its genetic material. One surprise is that the virus had already branched into two subtypes by the time it was isolated from the first patient in Wuhan on December 23, and this patient seemed to have the second subtype – not the original. Peter Forster, a genetics professor from Cambridge University, has dubbed the original variant A, and the one found in that Wuhan patient variant B. (B carries two mutations not found in A.)

Strain A is more than 96% identical to samples isolated from horseshoe bats, which he believes harbored the virus before it jumped to humans. A molecular clock technique puts that leap between September 18 and December 7, 2019.

Forster said he and his colleagues, who published their work in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, used a collection of published viral sequences collected in an international database normally used to track influenza. The paper only included the first 160 viral genomes, but his group has now studied more than 1,000.

Looking at data from before January 17, which represents the earliest date people started travelling for Chinese New Year, Forster found that of 44 Wuhan samples, 42 were B and only 2 were A. There were more A strains in the Guangdong Province in southern China.

Some people have speculated that the virus escaped from the Wuhan Institute of Virology, which may have been experimenting on coronaviruses, but Forester says his data point to a jump from bats in Southern China that subsequently spread to Wuhan and other areas. The B strain might have branched off before it reached Wuhan, where the first major outbreak was noticed.

Meanwhile, he says, they find viruses from cluster A in Americans who’d travelled from China to the West Coast of the United States between January and early March. Before March 24th, most U.S. cases were A.

B, however, quickly became the dominant type in Wuhan and across China. Another mutation in B led to a strain C, which is nearly absent in China, but is still spreading across Europe. Europe has also shown a lot of sequences from the B cluster. (Whether these mutations affect the behavior or lethality of the virus is yet to be determined, since mutations don’t always lead to changes in function.)

Forster said the viral genetics show the first case in Italy in late January originated from an early spread in Germany, though Italian health authorities focused only on the patients’ possible connections to China. “Meanwhile the disease is spreading uncontrolled across Italy.”

Researchers at NYU and Mount Sinai used similar genetic information gathered later in the outbreak to determine that cases in New York City originated from multiple sources elsewhere in the U.S. and Europe, rather than directly from China, and that there had been local spread in New York for a month or so before it was officially first identified there at the end of February. Their paper is pending publication.

Forster hopes further work in sequencing genomes could help health authorities track new outbreaks without looking in the wrong place. And finding the true origin of the pandemic could help us avoid making the same mistake again.

Antibody studies are looking for more volunteers

Antibody tests have become a hot topic since people jumped to the conclusion that getting a positive test means you can’t get or spread Covid-19. While standard tests detect genetic material from the virus itself, antibody tests can detect proteins the body makes to fight the infections.

New York Times tech columnist Kara Swisher wrote this week that she got one, “because she knew a guy,” but found it a moral dilemma to take a test so many others need.

It would have presented no moral dilemma had the guy been the head of a legitimate research project, because scientists still can’t be sure antibodies from a previous infection always protect against a new one. Harvard epidemiologist Marc Lipsitch also warned that too little is yet known about post-infection immunity to assume people can’t get re-infected.

“It’s hard to know what immunity to this virus looks like since it’s only been in humans since, maybe late 2019,” says Harvard immunologist Duane Wesemann, who is collecting samples from volunteers to figure it out. Several other coronaviruses infect humans, causing a subset of common colds. Scientists want to know whether recent infection with these might affect the severity of Covid-19 infections.

The testing itself isn’t rocket science, says Wesemann. But understanding the complex relationship between the virus and the human immune system is.

So far only about 6% of volunteers from around the Boston area were positive. Some reported a cold or sore throat in February or March, while others recalled no symptoms at all.

But the sample is still small.

Antibody-rich blood could help protect health care workers

If antibodies do work, and you test positive for them, you may be able to share your protection with several other people. Already, patients who’ve recovered from documented infections are donating their antibody-rich blood to others.

Doctors in China have treated small groups of patients and reported promising results in the Journal of the American Medical Association and the Proceeding of the National Academy of Sciences. In the United States, some severely ill patients get the same treatment under compassionate use guidelines.

But those are the cases where it’s least likely to work, says Johns Hopkins immunologist Arturo Casadevall. By then the virus has already done too much damage.

The rule of antibody therapy, he says, is it always works best if used early or prophylactically. Earlier this month, he and his fellow researchers at Johns Hopkins got approval for a clinical trial giving donated antibodies to front-line health care workers to protect them from getting sick.

Casadevall says he started pushing to develop the technology early, before the disease started spreading in the United States. His enthusiasm, he says, is based on his knowledge of medical history. Similar “convalescent serum” treatments have been used since the early 20th century to prevent or treat measles, mumps, and polio.

Unlike a vaccine, borrowed antibodies from recovered patients would confer only temporary protection – starting to fade after a half-life of about 20 days. Still, that’s long enough to help health care workers desperate to avoid getting infected.

The big limiting factor now is supply, he says. But that could change with more recovered patients and more antibody testing of people who had been only mildly ill. Donated blood can also be tested for antibodies.

Casadevall is optimistic that the biomedical research community will make quick inroads on this virus – between new treatments, new ways to speed up testing, and ways to protect people before a vaccine is close.

While this is the worst pandemic since 1918, and governments in many countries were slow to take precautions, he believes the international biomedical research community is a mighty force. “Humanity has never been better prepared.”

If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#425 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-18, 11:28

Today's statistics in Italy: positive 107771 (+1%), dead 23227 (+2%), no longer infected 44927 (+5%). Intensive care 2733 (-3%). Fatality rate 17.0%.
So finally we are seeing the death bulge declining while intensive care is ever less saturated.




View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-April-16, 15:47, said:

Because the virus takes about 3 weeks to kill somebody, we should only now start to see the effects of the lockdown.

It seems to take even longer than that quite frequently. In Italy many intensive care places are occupied for more than a month and about half of those patients die. We are only starting to see a real drop in deaths now and we can no longer even remember when lockdown started.
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#426 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-April-18, 20:57

Katrin Bennhold at NYT: With Broad, Random Tests for Antibodies, Germany Seeks Path Out of Lockdown
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#427 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 04:26

nteresting chart that I found genuinely surprising
https://pbs.twimg.co...=jpg&name=large

Looks like the low population density sections of many states actually has disproportionately high COVID-19 rates.  The current thinking is that these areas have dependencies on social infrastructure like Walmart which force the population to mix.  Also, lots of the jobs tend to require close contact with other people.  (Auto plants, meat processing plants, textiles)
Add in a population that is skeptical about social distancing, wearing masks, and ...
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#428 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 11:10

Michael Lewis at Bloomberg: The Covid Test Lab That Could Save America
If you lose all hope, you can always find it again -- Richard Ford in The Sportswriter
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#429 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 12:18

Today's statistics in Italy: positive 108257 (+0.4%), dead 23660 (+2%), no longer infected 47058 (+5%). Intensive care 2635 (-4%). Fatality rate 17.9%.
Today they closed one of the five intensive care facilities created in Milan two months ago, for lack of patients.

View Posthrothgar, on 2020-April-19, 04:26, said:

Looks like the low population density sections of many states actually has disproportionately high COVID-19 rates.  The current thinking is that these areas have dependencies on social infrastructure like Walmart which force the population to mix.  Also, lots of the jobs tend to require close contact with other people.  (Auto plants, meat processing plants, textiles)

A similar paradox in the low density alpine valleys here - the Valle d'Aosta has the highest percentage of infection in Italy. Forced convergence on infrastructure and a lot of socialisation are theorised as part of the pattern.
But I continue to suspect that that particulate pollution is one of the keys to diffusion of this virus and alpine cities like Aosta and Bolzano are crossed by heavy road traffic (even during shutdown) and hemmed in by mountains on two sides. Some other low density areas hard hit like Andalusia, Extremadura, Castilla-La Mancha and Valencia in Spain are notoriously plagued by high particulate levels. I would be curious to know if this rings true in the USA or not.
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#430 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 12:43

Well I discovered the virus visited my family yesterday, apparently one of my cousins wife and kids had what they thought was a mild cold, then later he went down with a rather more serious problem, but all fine now. (I got this second hand, so don't know much detail)
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#431 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 13:27

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-April-19, 12:43, said:

Well I discovered the virus visited my family yesterday, apparently one of my cousins wife and kids had what they thought was a mild cold, then later he went down with a rather more serious problem, but all fine now. (I got this second hand, so don't know much detail)


Glad to hear that it turned out for the best
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#432 User is offline   hrothgar 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 13:28

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-April-19, 12:43, said:

Well I discovered the virus visited my family yesterday, apparently one of my cousins wife and kids had what they thought was a mild cold, then later he went down with a rather more serious problem, but all fine now. (I got this second hand, so don't know much detail)


Glad to hear that it turned out for the best
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#433 User is offline   y66 

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Posted 2020-April-19, 18:51

Ezekiel J. Emanuel and Paul Romer said:

To safely reopen closed businesses and revive American social life, we need to perform many more tests—and focus them on the people most likely to spread COVID-19, not sick patients.

http://on.theatln.tc/zyprzP1

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#434 User is offline   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-April-20, 23:24

View PostFelicityR, on 2020-April-17, 08:46, said:

Some other writer was also credited with a viral epidemic originating in China, I think even Wuhan, in a book that was 30-40 years old (?), though for the life of me I cannot remember the author's name. Sadly, coronavirus is science fact, not fiction, and neither was the Spanish Flu pandemic of 1918, and the only science fiction writer I know from that era was H.G. Wells.


hilarious - barry - remove this please even the water cooler should have some limits
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#435 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-April-21, 06:06

View Postpilowsky, on 2020-April-20, 23:24, said:

hilarious - barry - remove this please even the water cooler should have some limits


What do you find hilarious? My sincere and heartfelt apologies if you really feel that I am not worthy of commenting on here. I was only illustrating to a new(ish) commentator that there are other science fiction books out there with a similar plot. I have found the book by searching online: Eyes of Darkness, by American author Dean Koontz, published in 1981. As I now understand, Mr Koontz is a very prolific horror/science fiction writer.

The book is a work of fiction, and was published nearly 40 years ago. It's just another one of those conspiracy theories that someone has put on the internet and other people have latched on to it.

I am neither a Sinophobe, nor a racist, I just remembered vaguely that it was mentioned some months ago in the national online press. I really didn't take any notice at the time: it's only a book.

As for H. G. Wells, he was nominated for the Nobel Prize for Literature several times, and many of this books have been very accurate of how the future would turn out, and yes I acknowledge others have been off-the-mark.

The plot of The Shape of Things to Come (which I read a very long time ago) makes interesting reading.

https://en.m.wikiped..._Things_to_Come

On a more positive note, it does look like that the epidemic has plateaued in the UK: fewer deaths over the last few days than previously. I just hope that other nations will see their own covid-19 statistics begin to look better as time goes on.

Edit: Today's figures - deaths - have worryingly gone up again to over 780. Previous days were approx. 450 and 600. Let's hope it's only a temporary deviation
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#436 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2020-April-21, 07:03

If true, this is the best coronavirus news in the UK I have seen in a while: https://covid.joinzoe.com/data

(If you live in the UK, you can help them gather more data by downloading the app and spending 30 seconds (when feeling well) a day with it. It will especially important once restrictions are eased - they might be able to detect a spike of infections in your area much quicker than even widespread testing, and of course much quicker than hospitalization numbers. )
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#437 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-April-21, 08:36

View Postcherdano, on 2020-April-21, 07:03, said:

If true, this is the best coronavirus news in the UK I have seen in a while: https://covid.joinzoe.com/data

(If you live in the UK, you can help them gather more data by downloading the app and spending 30 seconds (when feeling well) a day with it. It will especially important once restrictions are eased - they might be able to detect a spike of infections in your area much quicker than even widespread testing, and of course much quicker than hospitalization numbers. )


It's a great computer tool to predict rates of infection, however the only drawback is that you have to be reliant on people downloading the app and entering the data. I am sure there are people who cannot be bothered with doing this together with other people who do not have the wherewithal to do so, e.g. the elderly.

But given that half-a-million people have used the app - thank you - it's at least a promising indication of where we as a nation are heading, plus further confirming that the lockdown measures are at least working in the main.
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#438 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2020-April-21, 08:41

View PostFelicityR, on 2020-April-21, 08:36, said:

It's a great computer tool to predict rates of infection, however the only drawback is that you have to be reliant on people downloading the app and entering the data. I am sure there are people who cannot be bothered with doing this together with other people who do not have the wherewithal to do so, e.g. the elderly.

But given that half-a-million people have used the app - thank you - it's at least a promising indication of where we as a nation are heading, plus further confirming that the lockdown measures are at least working in the main.

As long as you get a statistically significant number of people using it, you should get reasonable results. Coverage doesn't have to be complete for the data to be useful, so longer as the coverage isn't overly biased.

#439 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-April-21, 14:53

I see Spain got 600K coronavirus testing kits from China, sent them back because they were crap, received the "improved" ones recently and have just sent them back because they're still terrible.
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#440 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-April-21, 15:41

Based on recent study results, if you happen to get COVID-19, you should choose a drug treatment other than choroquine or hydroxychloroquine if you have any choice in the matter.

Malaria drugs fail to help coronavirus patients in controlled studies

Quote

“My own impression so far is that these medications are a colossal ‘Maybe,’” said Dr. Michael H. Pillinger, a professor of medicine at New York University and chief of rheumatology at the Veterans Affairs’ New York Harbor Healthcare System.

“Is there enough possible benefit that we could use these on a wing and prayer until something better comes along? I’m underwhelmed” by the evidence for that, Pillinger said.

A number of other studies have not show significant benefit, and have also show severe side effects affecting the heart.

Leave these drugs to the MAGA people who don't care if they don't work and may actually be more harmful than helpful.
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