[euclidz]

First off, before anyone jumps on me for being critical I very much appreciate what BBO provides AND that it is free and I am truly grateful.

It's great and it's free but (IMO) it could be so much better at no cost. As a ‘user’ it looks like the existing structure is something that evolved without a plan. As a user I want to be able to choose what systems I play with/against and what skill level of player I play with/against. I did find on google an old message from Uday Ivatury suggesting that was going to survey members "so that he could make BBO better". If he was to ask me for my opinion (stop laughing) on what should be done to improve the model, I would suggest the following.

1. Delete all existing Clubs.
2. Create Clubs based on Systems and ability.
Suggested examples . . .
SAYC (Advanced)
SAYC (Accomplished)
SAYC (Intermediate)
SAYC (Improvers)
Acol (Advanced)
Acol (Accomplished)
Acol (Intermediate)
Acol (Improvers)
Polish Club
Precision
Universal/Multiple (any system allowed . . . (for (weird) people who want to play one system against another)
A N Other(s)
Note: On 'skill level' as 99% of people will put themselves in the middle I think it's important to find two middle levels to force users to choose up or down.
3. Appoint (from amongst the membership) an Administrator and Moderators (who agree to be in that Club at some point every day) for each Club with the powers the set the rules of play within that Club, organiser tournaments, hear and adjudicate complaints, suspend or ban members.
4. Allow Private Clubs on payment of a fee.

[FelicityR]

I like the idea but there better be a few 2/1 system/ability clubs amongst them otherwise many players from the USA, and some from other countries, and even the robots, would feel excluded from BBO...

[hrothgar]

Profoundly stupid idea

Bridge clubs are social structures. The bindings are primarily based on personal friendships, trust, and regulatory structures.
They are not attempts to create bidding system mono-cultures.

Its entirely possible that BBO needs better ways for people to find partners/opponents.

The club system is not the tool that you want

[euclidz]

hrothgar, on 2020-July-31, 07:23, said:

Profoundly stupid idea
Bridge clubs are social structures. The bindings are primarily based on personal friendships, trust, and regulatory structures.
They are not attempts to create bidding system mono-cultures.

I, like most of us here, am a member of (f2f) Bridge Club which is both competitive and social. it never occurred to me that people are on BBO to make friends. I'm struggling with the idea that anyone joined BBO to make friends with a person they will never meet but each to his own. I suspect that you are in a minority and that most people, like me, play Bridge on BBO for the game and nothing else.

[Gerardo]

euclidz, on 2020-July-31, 07:51, said:

I, like most of us here, am a member of (f2f) Bridge Club which is both competitive and social. it never occurred to me that people are on BBO to make friends. I'm struggling with the idea that anyone joined BBO to make friends with a person they will never meet but each to his own. I suspect that you are in a minority and that most people, like me, play Bridge on BBO for the game and nothing else.

I know a few cases of friendship (and more) made on BBO.

I am sure there are many I don't know.

[FelicityR]

euclidz, on 2020-July-31, 07:51, said:

I, like most of us here, am a member of (f2f) Bridge Club which is both competitive and social. it never occurred to me that people are on BBO to make friends. I'm struggling with the idea that anyone joined BBO to make friends with a person they will never meet but each to his own. I suspect that you are in a minority and that most people, like me, play Bridge on BBO for the game and nothing else.

Personally I think you are looking at BBO in the wrong way. The statement I'm struggling with the idea that anyone joined BBO to make friends with a person they will never meet but each to his own doesn't ring true. Just because someone lives 100s of miles away doesn't mean you cannot meet except if you have some disability that prevents you from travelling.

I know of many people who have met online friends here. Having the common interest of bridge is a great start. Many years ago I played bridge on another site and I even had the genuine offer from a lady who I played with regularly to come over to Australia - I live in the UK - and stay with her family. (I admit that was a bit too long a journey to undertake.)

People join BBO to play bridge primarily, but it's impossible not to develop online friendships here, or am I missing something? If you don't want to that's your prerogative, but hrothgar is right that the bridge clubs on BBO are social structures, just online versions of bricks and mortar bridge clubs around the country.

Actually I feel developing clubs around bidding systems isn't such a stupid idea as the Acol Club on BBO works on that basis. The only problem with that is that you then don't get to play against opposition that are using a different system - something that will happen in the wider bridge world - so it becomes a little too parochial. But perhaps many novice/beginner/intermediate players feel more comfortable having something they understand played by the opposition, too.

[euclidz]

I am very happy that some BBO users have made new friends (depending on how we define friend). I would however argue that the raison detre of BBO is to provide a platform to play Bridge, to learn, improve and enjoy playing Bridge not to make friends. That said if BBO are reading this thread at the end of the list of Clubs based on Bridge Systems and skill levels they might include a Club to make friends. I suspect that will not happen because anyone joining that Club is likely to spend more time 'making friends' than playing Bridge.

Based on the presumption that Aims and Objective of BBO is to provide the best platform for meeting the needs of people who want to play Bridge I personally would like someone at BBO to sit down and think about whether the current structure (which has evolved randomly over time) could be improved with a little re-structuring along the lines suggested at the top of this thread.

[pescetom]

euclidz, on 2020-July-31, 12:20, said:

I am very happy that some BBO users have made new friends (depending on how we define friend). I would however argue that the raison detre of BBO is to provide a platform to play Bridge, to learn, improve and enjoy playing Bridge not to make friends. That said if BBO are reading this thread at the end of the list of Clubs based on Bridge Systems and skill levels they might include a Club to make friends. I suspect that will not happen because anyone joining that Club is likely to spend more time 'making friends' than playing Bridge.

Based on the presumption that Aims and Objective of BBO is to provide the best platform for meeting the needs of people who want to play Bridge I personally would like someone at BBO to sit down and think about whether the current structure (which has evolved randomly over time) could be improved with a little re-structuring along the lines suggested at the top of this thread.

I have never knowingly played in or joined (does one?) a BBO club, and my understanding (perhaps wrong) is that this feature is limited to people opening tables and is also now deprecated. I wouldn't be interested in joining a club for people who "bid like me", unless that extended to finding partners to play in competitive tournaments. Something that could equally well be handled by more accurate profiling or a more open/flexible system card model.

I do agree that meeting and getting to know complete strangers is an important part of BBO in general and the forum in particular.

Does anyone really still play SAYC or Acol, BTW?

[Capt_Ravi]

euclidz, on 2020-July-31, 06:23, said:

First off, before anyone jumps on me for being critical I very much appreciate what BBO provides AND that it is free and I am truly grateful.

It's great and it's free but (IMO) it could be so much better at no cost. As a ‘user’ it looks like the existing structure is something that evolved without a plan. As a user I want to be able to choose what systems I play with/against and what skill level of player I play with/against. I did find on google an old message from Uday Ivatury suggesting that was going to survey members "so that he could make BBO better". If he was to ask me for my opinion (stop laughing) on what should be done to improve the model, I would suggest the following.

1. Delete all existing Clubs.
2. Create Clubs based on Systems and ability.
Suggested examples . . .
SAYC (Advanced)
SAYC (Accomplished)
SAYC (Intermediate)
SAYC (Improvers)
Acol (Advanced)
Acol (Accomplished)
Acol (Intermediate)
Acol (Improvers)
Polish Club
Precision
Universal/Multiple (any system allowed . . . (for (weird) people who want to play one system against another)
A N Other(s)
Note: On 'skill level' as 99% of people will put themselves in the middle I think it's important to find two middle levels to force users to choose up or down.
3. Appoint (from amongst the membership) an Administrator and Moderators (who agree to be in that Club at some point every day) for each Club with the powers the set the rules of play within that Club, organiser tournaments, hear and adjudicate complaints, suspend or ban members.
4. Allow Private Clubs on payment of a fee.

When you go and register for a tournament in the real world, do you get to choose what sytem or convention your opponents play? You better find a defence against whatever they play.

[Mr Dale]

pescetom, on 2020-July-31, 15:58, said:

I have never knowingly played in or joined (does one?) a BBO club, and my understanding (perhaps wrong) is that this feature is limited to people opening tables and is also now deprecated. I wouldn't be interested in joining a club for people who "bid like me", unless that extended to finding partners to play in competitive tournaments. Something that could equally well be handled by more accurate profiling or a more open/flexible system card model.

I do agree that meeting and getting to know complete strangers is an important part of BBO in general and the forum in particular.

Does anyone really still play SAYC or Acol, BTW?

I belong to two bridge clubs in Thanet and as far as I know everybody in both clubs (myself included) plays acol.

[euclidz]

pescetom, on 2020-July-31, 15:58, said:

Does anyone really still play SAYC or Acol, BTW?

There is an Acol club and it was formed long before I joined BBO and presumably formed because some people, like me, would choose to play with and against others playing the same system. The rules of that Club is that you must play Acol but yes, every now and again someone individual or couple joins a table and play SAYC or 2/1 and because their are no moderators on BBO there is no way of ejecting them. It's a rare event and it shouldn't happen but there are nut cases everywhere.

I play Acol and so the Acol Club caters for my desire to play with and against others playing the same system. The problem (my problem (call me selfish)) is that I don't want to play with or against learners (particularly against, I don't want it 'easy') and since March we've been flooded with learners; hence my suggestion above here.

[hrothgar]

euclidz, on 2020-August-01, 07:13, said:

There is an Acol club and it was formed long before I joined BBO and presumably formed because some people, like me, would choose to play with and against others playing the same system. The rules of that Club is that you must play Acol but yes, every now and again someone individual or couple joins a table and play SAYC or 2/1 and because their are no moderators on BBO there is no way of ejecting them. It's a rare event and it shouldn't happen but there are nut cases everywhere.

I play Acol and so the Acol Club caters for my desire to play with and against others playing the same system. The problem (my problem (call me selfish)) is that I don't want to play with or against learners (particularly against, I don't want it 'easy') and since March we've been flooded with learners; hence my suggestion above here.

Its worth noting that the Acol Bridge Club was so named because it was on Acol road...
(and the Acol bidding system was named after said club)

I don't know the details of the foundation of the Acol club on BBO
It is not self evident that that it was intended to provide a bidding system monoculture

[shyams]

hrothgar, on 2020-August-01, 07:36, said:

Its worth noting that the Acol Bridge Club was so named because it was on Acol road...
(and the Acol bidding system was named after said club)

I did not know this. Amazing stuff. I googled the Acol Bridge Club (because I recall having played there once many years ago). The club website has this info about their history https://www.acolbrid...ut/club-history

Quote: "Acol is not an acronym, but a village in Kent that gave its name to Acol Road in West Hampstead, London NW6. The club was founded in the early 1930’s at No.15 Acol Road"

The club's present location is barely a 6-8 min walk from 15 Acol Road!

[barmar]

FelicityR, on 2020-July-31, 10:52, said:

I know of many people who have met online friends here. Having the common interest of bridge is a great start. Many years ago I played bridge on another site and I even had the genuine offer from a lady who I played with regularly to come over to Australia - I live in the UK - and stay with her family. (I admit that was a bit too long a journey to undertake.)

Many years ago I played on OKbridge. There was a pair who learned bridge together using the site; one was in Europe, the other in the US. Eventually they met in real life, and some time later they got married.

I'm sure there are many other similar stories. Many people socialize while playing online, especially in the clubs rather than tourneys.

[deb_wastle]

I like the idea of being able to find a partner with similar level and System. I would also like the idea of some Limited Games for newer players, yes I know the VACB games DO have limited games ... but in the other-than-VACB world I have not seen any. I prefer to play in OPEN games amongst a variety of people / systems / skill levels. I know I'm not alone. Some prefer to play in limited fields, but I've never heard of people wanting to play in a field so restricted as you suggest. Have you had many people who actually like the idea? I think if lots of people would like it, then there is no reason not to do it, but I could be wrong. It might be detrimental to the OPEN games in that that field would narrow with others abandoning it. Still, if that's what people want, I would support it. Good Luck with your suggestions.

[dond01]

Parts of this idea might be useful.
1. The idea of having a members "pick a system" as part of their profile - such that only members using the same general bidding system could sit as partners might not be a bad idea. (Perhaps with a toggle switch to allow others - no reason not to be flexible)
2. For those who select the lowest tier (or 2nd lowest) of ability, only opponents using the same general system would be able to join tables.
3. However, I strongly agree with the suggestion that players or at least those at or beyond intermediate levels do need to compete against opponents using other systems.

[AL78]

Capt_Ravi, on 2020-July-31, 18:57, said:

When you go and register for a tournament in the real world, do you get to choose what sytem or convention your opponents play? You better find a defence against whatever they play.

Not everyone wants to play in tournaments. In my experience those who specifically want to play bridge amongst their peers who are playing similar systems and of similar ability have little interest in the more competitive side, they play for enjoyment and social interaction. A loose exception being novices, some who will have a go at playing in no-fear events which is technically a competition beyond a normal club duplicate, but where the players will be limited to simple system and limited rank.

[Capt_Ravi]

AL78, on 2020-August-02, 04:56, said:

Not everyone wants to play in tournaments. In my experience those who specifically want to play bridge amongst their peers who are playing similar systems and of similar ability have little interest in the more competitive side, they play for enjoyment and social interaction. A loose exception being novices, some who will have a go at playing in no-fear events which is technically a competition beyond a normal club duplicate, but where the players will be limited to simple system and limited rank.

For that, BBO has given you ample provision. Set your own table, add the caveats and restrict who sits.

[phoenixmj]

To my knowledge, in all cases people need to alert any bid that is likely to be misinterpreted because of systems. This eliminates most of the issues when you are faced with people playing a different system. I think most people, including myself, would not want to be limited to playing with or against people playing my exact convention card. Most people like a good challenge and coming across what is essentially a bridge problem (dealing with someone's alerted bid) is an opportunity to learn more about the game. When we were playing f2f, people at our clubs would play sayc, 2/1, acol, precision - all of the above. Within those systems, people would play flannery or not play flannery. People would use different systems for 2 club opens, different systems for dealing with interference, etc. This to me is the game of bridge.
I remember well the first time I came across someone playing flannery. I remember it because I was sitting there with a good opening hand and 5 spades. They opened 2 diamonds and alerted their flannery bid. I was completely lost but after the hand, talking with our opps, they told me that I should read up on defending against flannery - which i did and the next time I was prepared.
I really enjoy playing the game of bridge - and certainly it can be a frustrating game. But solving "problems" is part of the game for me.
And, in both local clubs and in tournaments, you are not allowed to select your opponents. That said, I think there are a few clubs that do designate system used. Not sure any say sayc, but I have definitely seen precision listed, and acol listed as well. Most of the bbo clubs do not offer points, so they are basically social clubs - and I do play in a few of them. I see no reason to wipe the slate clean and start everything all over. If you want a club that is sayc, then form one and see what happens. You might get a good response or you might not depending on interest.