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Weak 6-5

Poll: Weak 6-5 (18 member(s) have cast votes)

Are You Worth Another Bid?

  1. Yes (5 votes [27.78%])

    Percentage of vote: 27.78%

  2. No (13 votes [72.22%])

    Percentage of vote: 72.22%

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#1 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-September-16, 20:05

This hand came up in an expert game I was kibitzing on BBO a few days ago. I won't show the other hands but this expert felt he was worth another bid of 3. (Having described your hand on the first round of bidding vulnerable, and partner showing no interest in your suits, have you got enough given your 6-5 shape - and we all know the expression '6-5 come alive' - to bid again, given that the 2 bid was shown as s + minor (respective lengths unknown)? '*Double*' by West was un-alerted, so were all the subsequent bids.



Edit: scoring was IMPs - 2 team match

Second Edit: I will post the whole board after this weekend. I am awaiting for a few more experienced expert forum members to comment on this hopefully before revealing what happened and whether 3 was a sound bid or not.
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#2 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-September-16, 22:33

Partner specifically chose to bid spades over either of our suits, and if he does pick one over 3, it will probably be the wrong one (even if he knew we were 6-5, it'd look like 6 diamonds). I can't see any positive to bidding.
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#3 User is offline   heart76 

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Posted 2020-September-17, 00:20

Since you write it was experts, I would assume the X is not showing 5 spades but it shows 4 and it was bid with short H and a balanced hand.
Can 2S be a forcing H raise and 3C 6 of them? 3D may be then forced by agreement.
Or was this just a stupid thought since they did not alert?
The alternative for me would be X=penalty and the rest natural, but it wouldn't explain the 3D bid vulnerable when you know they're not going to play 3NT or 4M.

I would also agree that 3D shows longer D or a 66.
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#4 User is offline   msjennifer 

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Posted 2020-September-17, 00:22

SIR,
Since none of the bids made by opponents have been alerted ,partner knows that your second suit is diamonds else you would double 3. BIDDING 3 now will certainly depict a much stronger and at least a 6+ diamond suit.The present hand has only a ragged 5 card suit which partner already knows.I,personally ,shall pass the 3.HOWEVER I AM NOWHERE NEAR AN EXPERT. MAY BE THE BID OF 3 IS BEYOND MY COMPREHENSION.
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#5 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-September-17, 02:26

They must be playing one of those system things I've heard about...
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#6 User is offline   Huibertus 

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Posted 2020-September-17, 03:17

Surely north does not have a hand unsuitable to play both minors, otherwise he would have bid 2NT for south to show which minor he holds.

If north has a hand suitable to support he'll be the one to bid 3 as 3 and the pass made clear which minor south holds.
If he has neither minor, happy to defend 3 or anything they may bid, having escaped the misfit massacre.
If he has defense in he might inform everybody about that with a welcome double...

So, no not worth another bid for now (once north bids one could consider to outcompete them).
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#7 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2020-September-17, 10:00

View PostHuibertus, on 2020-September-17, 03:17, said:

Surely north does not have a hand unsuitable to play both minors, otherwise he would have bid 2NT for south to show which minor he holds.

If north has a hand suitable to support he'll be the one to bid 3 as 3 and the pass made clear which minor south holds.
If he has neither minor, happy to defend 3 or anything they may bid, having escaped the misfit massacre.
If he has defense in he might inform everybody about that with a welcome double...

So, no not worth another bid for now (once north bids one could consider to outcompete them).


Thanks, that seems a good summary. From the extent of subsequent bidding North is likely to be in a position to pick up that South (who is vulnerable) does not have many hcp and must have additional shape. I'd want 6-6 to bid.
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#8 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-September-17, 13:51

I will assume West's X is negative. If it's penalty (unlikely in an expert game), then 3D makes no sense whatsoever.

If it's negative, however, you can be pretty sure that the opponents have at least an 8-card club fit, maybe a 9-card club fit. East likely has 5 C to bid over 2S, and West has at least 3 and quite possibly 4.

To the folks who said "Well, if North had a few diamonds, he'd have bid 2NT": Poppycock. What if North is 6142? You think North is going to bid 2NT over the X only to discover that your suit is clubs and go for a telephone number? Of course not. He's going to show his spades or else pass, depending on the strength of his suit and his hand.

Partner is going to bid 2NT over the X only with GOOD support for BOTH minors (that is 4/4 in the minors). Otherwise, he'll just pass and hope opener didn't open 1NT with a five-card H suit.

Do you really think partner is 6124? No way - the opponents have at least 8 clubs. 7123? Possibly, but I highly doubt it. You almost certainly have an 8-fit in a red suit. You might have a double 8-fit. You might have a 9-fit in D.

The question is whether you want to defend 3C or bid 3 over 3. I think it's close. To a great extent, it depends on how many H partner has. If he has 0-1, then you are probably just fine defending (especially at IMPs). You might well take the first 5 tricks with Ah and four ruffs. If he has 2H, you likely are better off in 3 of a red suit.

I have no problem whatsoever with either pass or 3D here. Just sayin ...

Cheers,
mike
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#9 User is offline   dsLawsd 

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Posted 2020-September-17, 14:21

I said Yes, but that depends on having well-tuned understandings on these auctions. In that case I would not bid diamonds, but would double expecting a misfit and hope for the best. If partner was only kidding then he can pull to 3.

Without the above I Pass...
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#10 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-September-17, 14:32

View Postmiamijd, on 2020-September-17, 13:51, said:

If he has 2H, you likely are better off in 3 of a red suit.

With 2H and 2D, you'll be in the wrong red suit though, won't you, as partner will surely pass 3. Or are you happy to be playing in the 5-2 fit?

You also mentioned you might have a 9 card diamond fit, but if you're saying West promises at least 3 clubs for the double, the same logic applies to diamonds, so a 9 card diamond fit is impossible.

So based on your logic of wanting to declare when partner has 2 hearts, you'll only actually be declaring in an 8 card fit if partner also has exactly 3 diamonds, which seems a very narrow target.
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#11 User is offline   miamijd 

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Posted 2020-September-18, 11:49

View Postsmerriman, on 2020-September-17, 14:32, said:

With 2H and 2D, you'll be in the wrong red suit though, won't you, as partner will surely pass 3. Or are you happy to be playing in the 5-2 fit?

You also mentioned you might have a 9 card diamond fit, but if you're saying West promises at least 3 clubs for the double, the same logic applies to diamonds, so a 9 card diamond fit is impossible.

So based on your logic of wanting to declare when partner has 2 hearts, you'll only actually be declaring in an 8 card fit if partner also has exactly 3 diamonds, which seems a very narrow target.


You are likely correct re the diamonds, although it is possible that the 1NT opener has a stiff honor. But why would partner pass with 2/2 in the reds rather than correcting back to 3H?
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#12 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-September-18, 14:26

View Postmiamijd, on 2020-September-18, 11:49, said:

You are likely correct re the diamonds, although it is possible that the 1NT opener has a stiff honor. But why would partner pass with 2/2 in the reds rather than correcting back to 3H?

Because unlike other situations where you overcall / open hearts and then bid your diamonds, here 2 is an artifical two suited bid which doesn't promise longer hearts. Emphasising your minor on the second round is going to look much more like your diamonds are your better suit.
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#13 User is offline   Joe_Old 

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Posted 2020-September-18, 14:32

I voted "yes", but not knowing anything about their methods and being IMPs it's very close. What makes me want to bid again is that free bid of 2, which can't logically be a unilateral statement that are trump or some sort of rescue, since the X is not penalty. As Miamijd notes, the opponents have 8 or 9 , meaning Advancer must have tolerance. You are also not likely to be doubled at this level, since this is obviously a distributional deal. I wouldn't be surprised to find opener with a 3316 hand.

This is a much easier decision at match points, where -100 can score significantly better than -110 or -130, although it is also easier for the opponents to X 3.

All of the above is said without knowledge of the player's methods. Personally, I would play 2 as a cue bid, given that Opener could well have a 5 card suit at that stage of the auction, and there is ample reason to suspect Overcaller to be short. The cue bid would be intentionally ambiguous, since Overcaller has defined his hand, Advancer is now in control of the auction and will eventually decide the strain. Advancer may be looking at 6 or 7 red cards and be hoping to find a stop. Or 6043, or 6133. In this scenario Overcaller is required to bid 3 in cooperation. X would show a stop (first or second round control) and suit.
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#14 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-September-18, 16:46

Beware of self-proclaimed BBO experts😀

If these players were actually experts, then either south understood, perhaps from previous experience, that the double was negative or he screwed up, in a big way, by not asking the meanin* of double before bidding over 3C.

If double was penalty, then 3D shows a death wish....for self and hapless partner. Even if partner has some diamonds, they’re leading trump against 3D x’d.

So let’s assume, as would be case in almost all real expert games, that the double was negative, usually played as showing ownership,of th3 hand, tho not in and of itself forcing to game.

What are we to make of the 2S bid?

There aren’t enough points in the deck for partner to be showing a good 3H raise based on hcp, but maybe he has medium hcp but good shape, .and I’d expect him to have other ways to do that anyway. For example, 2N ostensibly asks for the minor, but followed by 3H is commonly played as invitational in hearts. An immediate 3H would, playing that method, be competitive.

In any event, we are void in spades and opener may well have only 2 or 3, so partner should, imo, have 6 or 7 spades, probably with very good texture’ since he knows rho has 4 and LHO at least 3.

I infer further that he fears a conversion of the double by opener, so he will have at most 2 hearts and may well be very short. Equally, he is not thrilled about competing to 3m, preferring to try to play 2S opposite my probable stiff or void.

So something like KQ1098xx x Jxx xx

Put another way, even if you (understandably) don’t like the idea of constructing hands, how would you bid this hand on the auction?

I think you can safely infer that I really do not like the 3D call.

Of course, I’m reading a lot into the meaning of the double. But no expert, sitting N-S, would bid without knowing or finding out what double showed.

If, for example, it showed 5+ spades (not a treatment I’ve ever seen used by good players but I know, from posts on this site, that some players use it this way, then I’d change my mind, and take 2S as showing a constructive heart hand. Now, as east, I’d bid 3D to encourage partner, knowing that he’d always take me back to hearts
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#15 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-September-18, 17:53

FelicityR "IMPs. Team Match. This hand came up in an expert game I was kibitzing on BBO a few days ago. I won't show the other hands but this expert felt he was worth another bid of 3. (Having described your hand on the first round of bidding vulnerable, and partner showing no interest in your suits, have you got enough given your 6-5 shape - and we all know the expression '6-5 come alive' - to bid again, given that the 2 bid was shown as s + minor (respective lengths unknown)? '*Double*' by West was un-alerted, so were all the subsequent bids."
++++++++++++++++++++
I guess .. West's double = NEG "values", willing to contest the partscore.
North's 2 = NAT short , 5+ .
Easts 3 = NAT Probably 6+ s.
Hence, over East's 3, I rank:
1. 3 = NAT "Come alive"? or "Death Wish III"? It seems "Into the Valley of Death" is the judgement of BBO experts :(
2. Pass = NAT but timid: especially as it's common to overcall on 4-5 shapes, on BBO.

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#16 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-September-19, 13:13

View Postmikeh, on 2020-September-18, 16:46, said:

Beware of self-proclaimed BBO experts :)

If these players were actually experts then...


Let me say, Mike, three names I know from vugraph matches, top flight world class internationals who have won a few trophies between them. The fourth name I didn't know - actually the player that made the 3 bid - but she is a professional bridge player and teacher, and has her own bridge website, I have now discovered.
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#17 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-September-20, 03:35

Thank you for your replies. I wanted to establish the thinking behind the 3 bid. It turned out well as it resulted in a double game swing and 16 IMPs for her team. Here is the whole hand and the bidding at both tables.



West led the A and 5X made.



Now that the hands and bidding have been given, I'm still interested how you view this. Thank you.
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#18 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-September-20, 03:57

I don't think I've seen a hand where 5N is the best save before :) strange par contract of 5Nx-1
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#19 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2020-September-20, 04:50

The best I can do is to infer that west chose to double 2H for penalty, which looks odd to me .

I then suspect that 3S was an effort to show spades stopped and invite opener to bid 3N.

I still don’t understand 3D
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#20 User is online   pilowsky 

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Posted 2020-September-20, 05:24

View PostFelicityR, on 2020-September-20, 03:35, said:

Thank you for your replies. I wanted to establish the thinking behind the 3 bid. It turned out well as it resulted in a double game swing and 16 IMPs for her team. Here is the whole hand and the bidding at both tables.



West led the A and 5X made.



Now that the hands and bidding have been given, I'm still interested how you view this. Thank you.


Here's how I see it: I think West is the one that was a bit verschmickled.

1NT: 14-18 balanced - this seems to be the modern 1NT opening.
2: Cappelletti and a minor

Double of : transfer to

2: Aha! I've got
3: the suit I'd prefer to since I was a bit light for my 1NT anyway

3: the minor I mentioned earlier.
3: West must have misunderstood what was happening.
5: Oh boy this going to be great.

Pass: I wish West would shut up.

Double: Gotcha

Pass: Hmmm
Pass: WTF
Pass: should I redouble...nah.



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