[pilowsky]

This hand just came up in practice.
The first time I bid it with the robots on the teaching table it went 1NT pass 2♦ pass 2♥ PPP
and I successfully went 2♥-1.
Then I discovered that the hand makes 4♥= on the lead. With a combined 22 HCP and 7 Trumps and a 4/2 split, I discover the value of AJ's over queens.
the robots lead the ♥2


The question really is: how would you get to 4♥? Or would you?

---

If I play it properly, it looks like this.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

No, I am not getting to game, and the question is not,
if you can make 10 tricks, how to get there, the question is,
do you want to be there?

You usually loose 1Club / 1Diamond, and on average 2Trump Tricks,
give that you are missing QT9x.
Sometimes you make over tricks.

It may be more interesting to wonder, what you should lead with West,
given the auction, H2 would be low on my list, but ... could say
the same about any of other suits, so maybe H2 it is.

With kind regards
Marlowe

[pilowsky]

Seems to be a quirk of GIB that it leads trumps a lot (at least against me).

[AL78]

Some people at my club would overcall 2♠ on the East hand, then the question is can you play in hearts at all.

In any case I am not getting to 4♥. North has a poor hand and South doesn't have heart support. Why would anyone be bidding game?

Just because it makes on a particular line of play doesn't mean it is sound to bid it. Bridge is a probabilistic game, and what matters is what works well on average over a large number of hands, not what works on any individual hand.

[Cyberyeti]

Well if you're going to open a 19 count 1N you won't reach these games, AJ10 is worth a lot more than 5. (FWIW K&R gave 19.8 when I checked after making my initial assessment)

And just because 4♥ is a little lucky doesn't mean you shouldn't bid game, 5♣ is actually decent.

[pilowsky]

So, do you calculate your opening counts with K&R? i.e. + length/shortage. which sort of has the same effect.
I must admit I've dropped my 1NT to 14 HCP with GIB - and in the Club (alerted of course) but with a 'true' 19 I would normally call 2NT - at least with my system.

So you're suggesting 2♣ here?

[Cyberyeti]

pilowsky, on 2020-September-23, 03:15, said:

So, do you calculate your opening counts with K&R? i.e. + length/shortage. which sort of has the same effect.
I must admit I've dropped my 1NT to 14 HCP with GIB - and in the Club (alerted of course) but with a 'true' 19 I would normally call 2NT - at least with my system.

So you're suggesting 2♣ here?

No I'm saying I'd bid this however I bid a balanced 19 not a balanced 17 if I'm going to treat it as balanced. I only use K&R to check my view after I've formed it. If that's 2N then open that.

I might just open 1♦ which will get us to 5♣.

AJ10 because it's 1.25 losers opposite xxx as against AJx which is 1.75 I just calculate as 6 points rather than 5, hence 17 + 2 AJ10s = 19 was the simple method, I also have a 5 card suit which doesn't hurt.

[pilowsky]

Cyberyeti, on 2020-September-23, 03:50, said:

No I'm saying I'd bid this however I bid a balanced 19 not a balanced 17 if I'm going to treat it as balanced. I only use K&R to check my view after I've formed it. If that's 2N then open that.

I might just open 1♦ which will get us to 5♣.

AJ10 because it's 1.25 losers opposite xxx as against AJx which is 1.75 I just calculate as 6 points rather than 5, hence 17 + 2 AJ10s = 19 was the simple method, I also have a 5 card suit which doesn't hurt.

Hmmmm, thanks.

[TylerE]

I'm not going to go as far as cyberyeti, but this hand is def. too good for a 15-17 NT (Which in actual expert practice is more like good 14-bad 17)... this is a pretty good 17.

1♦-1♥-2NT and then you're going to end up somewhere (albeit probably not 4♥.

I _suspect_ on this auction E will throw in a 1 or 2♠ bid over 1♥, which makes it easier to get to a suit rather than 3NT.

[bluenikki]

Weak 5-5 hands are hopeless facing a 1NT opening.

This hand is promising facing club length and strength and strength in hearts.

But you were pre-empted from learning in the auction whether that is the case.

Just knowing that opener is max with strong heart support gets you nowhere.

[miamijd]

I don't think I want to be in 4H. In fact, I don't think I want to be in hearts at all. I want to be in clubs, and in IMPs, I want to be in 5 of them. How to get there is tougher.

This hand is WAY too good for a 15-17 1NT opener. There are all kinds of 7-8 counts that partner will pass where you make 3NT easily.

I would open 1D, and now it really depends on whether the East hand bids spades over 1H. If he does, then you are likely to get to 5C. If the opponents are silent, however, then if you rebid 2NT, you're apt to end up in 3H (MPs) or 4H (IMPs), and if you rebid 2C, you're likely to play it there unless partner gives you a courtesy raise.

Cheers,
Mike

[apollo1201]

miamijd, on 2020-September-24, 14:40, said:

If the opponents are silent, however, then if you rebid 2NT, you're apt to end up in 3H (MPs) or 4H (IMPs), and if you rebid 2C, you're likely to play it there unless partner gives you a courtesy raise.

How do you manage to stop below game after a 2NT rebid by opener? I thought all calls responder makes after that rebid are GF. Except pass of course😉
So here you can also end up in 2NT, not the best contract of your life...

[smerriman]

apollo1201, on 2020-September-24, 14:58, said:

How do you manage to stop below game after a 2NT rebid by opener? I thought all calls responder makes after that rebid are GF. Except pass of course😉
So here you can also end up in 2NT, not the best contract of your life...

Most systems over 2NT let you sign off at the three level; you can play Wolff sign-off, or transfers, etc.

[bleurose51]

I am no expert but one thing I have noticed about almost ALL of pilowsky's posts is that you seem to be SO focused on results and almost not at all on how to bid/play properly. Missing the "ultimate" possible result doesn't mean you haven't bid correctly. In many bridge hands, there simply is no perfect way to bid (and in some cases play).

Almost every post of yours has some quirky thing and then you say something like "and I went down 1" or "how do I get to the "right" contract 4H" except you ignore (or seem to ) that maybe down 1 is just fine or maybe 4h isn't the right contract. (To be fair in this one you did add "how would you get to 4H... or would you?" ).

For me I certainly don't think I would. I would say in this hand (as several others have said) I would NEVER want to assume that 22 pts and a 7 card trump suit will make game. We know that on average it WON'T. So why do you want to get to a contract that depends on a specific lead and a specific lay of the hearts, and a perfect split in diamonds, etc.?

Especially if you are going down in TWO :-)

Maybe you should focus on how to make TWO on this hand (or even THREE) than on bidding FOUR.

Sorry, not trying to be overly critical, but it is something I have noticed in most of your posts (the focus on the best possible result and not necessarily on the best reasonable result) and I have not said anything before this. Again, I think your posts are interesting to read and I enjoy them, but I'd love to move you towards thinking about reasonable results if you are going to look at results at all.

Best of luck.

[nige1]

Pilowsky "This hand just came up in practice. The first time I bid it with the robots on the teaching table it went 1NT pass 2♦ pass 2♥ PPPand I successfully went 2♥-1. Then I discovered that the hand makes 4♥= on the lead. With a combined 22 HCP and 7 Trumps and a 4/2 split, I discover the value of AJ's over queens.the robots lead the ♥2. The question really is: how would you get to 4♥? Or would you? If I play it properly, it looks like this"
++++++++++++++++++++
Pilowski's 1N opener and his 4♥ rebid are idiosncratic. As CyberYeti writes, the South hand is too strong for 1N. Nevertheless, IMO, 4♥ is a reasonable contract. Orthodox play goes something like this: The most dangerous opening lead is a ♠ but after winning with ♠A, you can cash ♥K, finesse ♥J and cash ♥A. Then play ♣AJ hoping for a 2-2 break or a singleton honour. Now you can claim 10 tricks: 1 X ♠, 4 X ♥, 1 X ♦. and 4 X ♣. There's no need to risk any ♦ finesses.

---

[pilowsky]

bleurose51, on 2020-September-24, 17:03, said:

I am no expert but one thing I have noticed about almost ALL of pilowsky's posts is that you seem to be SO focused on results and almost not at all on how to bid/play properly. Missing the "ultimate" possible result doesn't mean you haven't bid correctly. In many bridge hands, there simply is no perfect way to bid (and in some cases play).

Almost every post of yours has some quirky thing and then you say something like "and I went down 1" or "how do I get to the "right" contract 4H" except you ignore (or seem to ) that maybe down 1 is just fine or maybe 4h isn't the right contract. (To be fair in this one you did add "how would you get to 4H... or would you?" ).

For me I certainly don't think I would. I would say in this hand (as several others have said) I would NEVER want to assume that 22 pts and a 7 card trump suit will make game. We know that on average it WON'T. So why do you want to get to a contract that depends on a specific lead and a specific lay of the hearts, and a perfect split in diamonds, etc.?

Especially if you are going down in TWO :-)

Maybe you should focus on how to make TWO on this hand (or even THREE) than on bidding FOUR.

Sorry, not trying to be overly critical, but it is something I have noticed in most of your posts (the focus on the best possible result and not necessarily on the best reasonable result) and I have not said anything before this. Again, I think your posts are interesting to read and I enjoy them, but I'd love to move you towards thinking about reasonable results if you are going to look at results at all.

Best of luck.

Thank you so much for taking the time to read my posts. On this particular hand I was as surprised as you were that it was possible to make 4♥. Like you, not being an expert, (and also like you, having signed up for the prime area for practice) I enjoy playing and hands working out how best to deal with them.
This particular hand came about because I manufactured some hands where North had a weak hand with a 5 card heart suit and I had 15-17 HCP points. So, I already knew that the bidding sequence would probably go the way it did, and I expected to have a tough time making 2♥.
The first time that I played it my result was 2H-1. I was not surprised until I looked at the double-dummy and the PBN and realised that it was a makeable contract.

That's when I stepped through the file and worked out what it is that I did wrong. Sometimes this process can take me several goes. I used to do the same thing when I solved Chess problems - In a way, all games are the same.
I think this is more important in matchpoints where overtricks are critical.
On the other hand. at IMP's where being in game is critical, I wondered if the real experts would see something here that I hadn't. So that was the reason for the post. In this regard, cyberyeti's comment is very helpful.
I think that I have a very long way to go before I'll be making either the over-tricks or getting into the game contracts and making them; but it is great to have the Forum to get advice.

thank you partner .

[apollo1201]

smerriman, on 2020-September-24, 16:26, said:

Most systems over 2NT let you sign off at the three level; you can play Wolff sign-off, or transfers, etc.

Interesting methods, thanks (not « advertised » in my country). With a former partner we had actually tried to imagine some kind of transfers but just played in one event.

[sfi]

apollo1201, on 2020-September-25, 00:31, said:

Interesting methods, thanks (not « advertised » in my country). With a former partner we had actually tried to imagine some kind of transfers but just played in one event.

Just playing transfers to all suits works well. It's fairly common too.

[msjennifer]

SIR,
My only humble comment is that I would never ever open 1NT on THIS hand in the 1st and 2nd seat.
One may find someone bidding 5♣ and make it.That means nothing.
I do not anywhere see in the post the heading query as to how many POINTS are needed for bidding a game.The answer to be given to a beginner was,( as I was) ,26 for 3NT, Then one shall ask "does it mean that one must not bid 7NT on just 22 HCP ?". We were also shown a hand ♠AKQJ109876543♥A♦VOID♣VOID going down in a contract of 7♠ DOUBLED on a ♥lead as RHO mercilessly ruffed it with the miserly ♠2. As also the well known hand where a side holding just the♠AJ score all 13 tricks against 35 HCP held by the opponents, bidding and making 7♠ in a competitive auction.
Any contract fulfilment depends upon the winners one has ,before opponents cash their winners,AND not upon HCP. And then above all one must be playing such a double dummy system which helps arrive to the PAR double dummy contract.POINTS are only an assisting guide in most cases.A side having AQ108 in all suits gets just the FOUR tricks of the four Aces in a NO TRUMP CONTRACT when opponents have the KJ97 of all suits OFFSIDE.24 FLAT POINTS scoring only 4TRICKS. Lastly ,there are always a few MR/MISS/MRS. NUMBER 52 who go just by the results and then attribute it to K&R.Incidentally we dislike K&R method as we found it rather ABSTRACT.
THANKS.
PS;Yes, one advantage of counting POINTS is it enables many players to SHOUT at their partners for bidding 3NT and going down with JUST 25 Points.

[doccdl]

pilowsky, on 2020-September-23, 01:10, said:

This hand just came up in practice.
The first time I bid it with the robots on the teaching table it went 1NT pass 2♦ pass 2♥ PPP
and I successfully went 2♥-1.
Then I discovered that the hand makes 4♥= on the lead. With a combined 22 HCP and 7 Trumps and a 4/2 split, I discover the value of AJ's over queens.
the robots lead the ♥2


The question really is: how would you get to 4♥? Or would you?

---

If I play it properly, it looks like this.

Why open 1Nt on a two suited hand,May be just with sole intention of preempt I guess opponents from there supposed major suits One spoils confidence in partner.Secondly why bother about the results.If one opens 1D then perhaps may reach a makeable 5clubs which does not require heart finesse.