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How to reach the best contract? hands with Diamond and Club double fit

#1 User is offline   mayoutu 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 02:16

North
102
K87
AQJ986
J3


South
-
J54
K72
AK87642

The actual bidding was like South as dealer passed and bid 3 after opponents found fit, which pushed them to 3 making. Opponents' clubs are 2-2 and diamond 3-1.

My question are: what is the best contract? Is it slam? How can N-S reach the best contract?
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#2 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 03:25

The improbable 5 by N may actually be best.

6 is good on a non spade lead but needs clubs 2-2 on the likely spade lead. 6(N) is marginally with the odds as you can deal with Q/xxx in the club suit which you can't in diamonds on a spade lead. 6(S) demands you not to get a heart lead and be off by trick 2, then the clubs to behave.

The S hand is a clear cut 1 opener which is part of why you didn't get high enough.
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#3 User is offline   FelicityR 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 05:28

With the opponents able to intervene, it's easier for all of us on the forums to assess if you provide the whole hand, not just North and South in isolation. And say whether it is IMPs or MPs and state the vulnerability.

As the opponents have 11 s between them, how they bid and the inferences drawn can make a big difference to how we would bid these hands. As Cyberyeti rightly says, South passing as dealer is just anti-bridge. It tells partner that you haven't got an opening hand which you obviously have, and it gives the opposition two bids to establish what values they have between them.

The opposition may not let you play in 5 or 5 preferring to sacrifice in 5 depending on the vulnerability. But I have a feeling that despite good minor suits in both hands, once the opponents 'bounce' the bidding up to 4 (according to the Law of Total Tricks) it will be awkward to find game in a minor without taking a risk as both hands are minimum opening bids, and despite the distributional nature of both hands - and we all know that distribution overrides high card points on many hands - it's not easy to determine the final contract.

I expect the bidding to go, I'm assuming, something like 1 - (1/2) - 2/3 - (4) - 5 or similar.
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#4 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 11:16

Not opening 1 is a gross misevaluation. That hand is not only not pass, not only a minimum opening, I'd go so far as to call it above average.
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#5 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 13:50

As noted, South has an obvious and automatic 1 opening bid. Even if South passes an opening bid, North has a 2 overcall if West opens 1. I don't know the best auction but I do know you won't get there if you pass all the time.
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#6 User is offline   neilkaz 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 17:41

South and North need to be checked for heartbeats. As South open 1C, and as North overcall 2D.
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#7 User is offline   mayoutu 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 21:33

View PostCyberyeti, on 2020-September-23, 03:25, said:

The improbable 5 by N may actually be best.

6 is good on a non spade lead but needs clubs 2-2 on the likely spade lead. 6(N) is marginally with the odds as you can deal with Q/xxx in the club suit which you can't in diamonds on a spade lead. 6(S) demands you not to get a heart lead and be off by trick 2, then the clubs to behave.

The S hand is a clear cut 1 opener which is part of why you didn't get high enough.


Thanks for the analysis. I agree South should open 1.
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#8 User is offline   mayoutu 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 21:50

View PostFelicityR, on 2020-September-23, 05:28, said:

With the opponents able to intervene, it's easier for all of us on the forums to assess if you provide the whole hand, not just North and South in isolation. And say whether it is IMPs or MPs and state the vulnerability.

As the opponents have 11 s between them, how they bid and the inferences drawn can make a big difference to how we would bid these hands. As Cyberyeti rightly says, South passing as dealer is just anti-bridge. It tells partner that you haven't got an opening hand which you obviously have, and it gives the opposition two bids to establish what values they have between them.

The opposition may not let you play in 5 or 5 preferring to sacrifice in 5 depending on the vulnerability. But I have a feeling that despite good minor suits in both hands, once the opponents 'bounce' the bidding up to 4 (according to the Law of Total Tricks) it will be awkward to find game in a minor without taking a risk as both hands are minimum opening bids, and despite the distributional nature of both hands - and we all know that distribution overrides high card points on many hands - it's not easy to determine the final contract.

I expect the bidding to go, I'm assuming, something like 1 - (1/2) - 2/3 - (4) - 5 or similar.


Thanks! This game was played between friends casually without IMP/vul. and cards were shuffled soon after. I just made the hands on my memory, all high cards should be right positioned. I was W holding 5-3-3-2 with about 12 HCP, and E 6-4-1-2 with 6 HCP? 3 was just a make. We don't know what will happen if the final contract is 5 or 6 /. Anyway we are not professional players. I will forward you guys' opinions to South. Thanks again!
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#9 User is offline   mayoutu 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 22:06

View PostTylerE, on 2020-September-23, 11:16, said:

Not opening 1 is a gross misevaluation. That hand is not only not pass, not only a minimum opening, I'd go so far as to call it above average.


Thanks! Is it a candidate for 3 preempt if both vul.?
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#10 User is offline   TylerE 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 22:31

Absolutely not. It’s way way too good. I would evaluate it at something like 17 or 18. Even stronger if a fit exists
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#11 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2020-September-23, 22:51

17 or 18 seems a bit extreme. If partner responds 1 of anything, are you really jumping to 3? It's an obvious opener, but definitely not extras.
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#12 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2020-September-24, 02:23

Mayoutu "The actual bidding was dealer passed and bid 3 after opponents found fit, which pushed them to 3 making. Opponents' clubs are 2-2 and diamond 3-1.My questions are: what is the best contract? Is it slam? How can N-S reach the best contract?"
++++++++++++++++++++
Hands rotated to make dealer West,
Vulnerable, Dealer might open 3 although the hand is also worth a 1 opener.
Minor suit games seem reasonable but are hard to reach, except as pseudo-sacrifices.
As the cards lay, 6/ are both makeable but IMO, attempting any slam is optimistic.

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#13 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-September-24, 03:18

View Postmayoutu, on 2020-September-23, 22:06, said:

Thanks! Is it a candidate for 3 preempt if both vul.?

It would be a reasonable 3 opening in 3rd or 4th seat but in 1st or 2nd it is a clear 1 call (or 2 playing a strong/mixed club system). As for the optimal contract, depending on the vulnerability and how the auction goes, that might be 5m, 5X, 6m or 6X. Given the expected barrage, the chances are that we will be guessing so as long as we score a plus in one of these contracts, we should probably be satisfied.
(-: Zel :-)

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#14 User is offline   mayoutu 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 07:12

View Postnige1, on 2020-September-24, 02:23, said:

Mayoutu "The actual bidding was dealer passed and bid 3 after opponents found fit, which pushed them to 3 making. Opponents' clubs are 2-2 and diamond 3-1.My questions are: what is the best contract? Is it slam? How can N-S reach the best contract?"
++++++++++++++++++++
Hands rotated to make dealer West,
Vulnerable, Dealer might open 3 although the hand is also worth a 1 opener.
Minor suit games seem reasonable but are hard to reach, except as pseudo-sacrifices.
As the cards lay, 6/ are both makeable but IMO, attempting any slam is optimistic.



Thanks. What is a typical sequence of a slam try, suppose opponents bid 1 and 2?
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#15 User is offline   mayoutu 

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Posted 2020-September-26, 07:17

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-September-24, 03:18, said:

It would be a reasonable 3 opening in 3rd or 4th seat but in 1st or 2nd it is a clear 1 call (or 2 playing a strong/mixed club system). As for the optimal contract, depending on the vulnerability and how the auction goes, that might be 5m, 5X, 6m or 6X. Given the expected barrage, the chances are that we will be guessing so as long as we score a plus in one of these contracts, we should probably be satisfied.


If you are the opponents, will you sacrifice? You might think there is a good chance 5m or 6m goes down.
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#16 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2020-September-27, 14:34

View Postmayoutu, on 2020-September-26, 07:17, said:

If you are the opponents, will you sacrifice? You might think there is a good chance 5m or 6m goes down.

That is an impossible question to answer without having a hand, an auction and a vulnerability. In any case it seems to me very unlikely that there will be a 1 overcall and a 2 advance from good players.
(-: Zel :-)

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#17 User is offline   johnu 

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Posted 2020-September-27, 15:18

View PostZelandakh, on 2020-September-27, 14:34, said:

That is an impossible question to answer without having a hand, an auction and a vulnerability.

Tough crowd :lol:
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