[thepossum]

It just seems this morning that two disastrous auctions by GiB have been expunged this morning while my bad hands are left in there

But for the record.

Hand 1. GiB in first overall position had 9 diamond tricks, possible slam, doubled and we ended up in a useless spade contract. I accept looking at it again I could have read Gibs mind, passed or doubled and waited for the 5 diamond overall.

Hand 2 Seemingly a 2H hand opposite 1NT was deemed worthy of Smolen. I accept in the latter hand ignoring what I thought was the correct Smolen bid could have ended in makeable 3NT rather than 4H-2 Edit and before anyone tells me I know you can make 4H double dummy but nobody managed too

EDIT Apologies they showed up later

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[Stephen Tu]

Hand 1: gib is hopeless in dealing with double with strong single handed situations, it just doesn't know how to continue sensibly.
Hand 2: a slightly optimistic evaluation maybe, but even if North hadn't GF, South should bid 4H and make it anyway.

You misplayed. The idea should be to pitch diamonds on the clubs, not spades (don't have to pitch right away, better to wait until they force out the 2nd diamond IMO), and play for two spade tricks. The spades will come in for a 2nd if one of SQ/SJ are onside and they are 3-3, or if they are 4-2 and you can maneuver for a ruff. If the opponents manage their own spade ruff or over ruff you, you basically hope that it's with the 3 trump hand and you have no additional heart loser after they ruff.

As actually played, you were essentially playing for 3-3 diamonds and spade onside, along with the heart split. If you embark on this line, you also didn't really give yourself much of a chance even if the SA had been onside, because you shortened yourself by ruffiing a club for no particular reason. You need to not shorten your long trump hand as much as possible, you have to play diamond/diamond right away after the spades and hope they split, or that you can ruff a diamond in dummy (again hoping person with short diamonds if ruffing high and preventing your ruff does so with the 3 cd trump hand). By ruffing a club you often get tapped out before the 4th diamond can be established.

It's not a double dummy line IMO.

[thepossum]

Stephen Tu, on 2020-September-30, 17:36, said:

Hand 1: gib is hopeless in dealing with double with strong single handed situations, it just doesn't know how to continue sensibly.
Hand 2: a slightly optimistic evaluation maybe, but even if North hadn't GF, South should bid 4H and make it anyway.

You misplayed. The idea should be to pitch diamonds on the clubs, not spades (don't have to pitch right away, better to wait until they force out the 2nd diamond IMO), and play for two spade tricks. The spades will come in for a 2nd if one of SQ/SJ are onside and they are 3-3, or if they are 4-2 and you can maneuver for a ruff. If the opponents manage their own spade ruff or over ruff you, you basically hope that it's with the 3 trump hand and you have no additional heart loser after they ruff.

As actually played, you were essentially playing for 3-3 diamonds and spade onside, along with the heart split. If you embark on this line, you also didn't really give yourself much of a chance even if the SA had been onside, because you shortened yourself by ruffiing a club for no particular reason. You need to not shorten your long trump hand as much as possible, you have to play diamond/diamond right away after the spades and hope they split, or that you can ruff a diamond in dummy (again hoping person with short diamonds if ruffing high and preventing your ruff does so with the 3 cd trump hand). By ruffing a club you often get tapped out before the 4th diamond can be established.

It's not a double dummy line IMO.

The play wasnt the issue under discussion Stephen. Everybody misplayed in the unwise 4H contract. It is clearly only a 2 or 3 heart hand. Certianly not worthy of a game force.OK. Don't try and defend the bad bidding by attacking people's play. But thanks for the tips. As you know my hand planning isnt always the best but I am usually a good jusge of a contract

[hrothgar]

thepossum, on 2020-September-30, 18:55, said:

Everybody misplayed in the unwise 4H contract. It is clearly only a 2 or 3 heart hand. Certainly not worthy of a game force.OK. Don't try and defend the bad bidding by attacking people's play

On the second hand, I think that the decision to GF via Smolen is questionable.
I probably would not chose this bid (5-4-4-0 shapes never seem to play as well as I hope), but I wouldn't object if partner took a different view.

I think that the point that Stephen was making is that this hand is NOT one where responder is going to transfer to hearts and sign off in 2♥ or alternatively,bid Stayman and pass the response.

I would actually expect a bunch of people to end up in 3N rather than 4H.

Either

1N - 2♦
2♥ - 2N
3N

or

1N - 2♣
2♦ - 2N
3N

seem like reasonable auctions

[Stephen Tu]

GIB doesn't play crawling Stayman. My point is that even if North bids stayman then 2H over 2D, with GIB this is invitational 4-5 in the majors, South has a super hand for this auction and should accept. So you end up in 4H anyway.

It's a bit too strong IMO to just transfer to 2H and pass, because there's too much potential opposite fit in either major.

Yes GF Smolen is an overbid; it's overvaluing the void opposite probable wastage, and doesn't account for hands where partner doesn't have heart fit at all where you are likely hopelessly overboard. But GIB doesn't really have sophisticated evaluation skills, it sees 10 total points and in its mind that = GF in this situation. It probably should be tweaked to require a bit more in HCP.

Yes it's not the greatest contract in the world, but just play better and give yourself a chance.

Neither of hrothgar's proposed auctions make any sense IMO. I would never give up on spades by transferring, and 2H is clearcut over 2D response. Even if 2H were not inv over 2D, and was being played as crawling (weak with both majors), I would much rather signoff in 2H than bid 2nt on this shape concealing the hearts and inviting 3nt on a 7 count.

Tip: If you really, really don't want play discussed, strip the play out of your hand diagram by deleting the carding section of the URL. You can also strip the opposing hands so they aren't displayed either. But at your stage of development, I would advise you to be more accepting of tips on how to improve your play, rather than always feeling "attacked" when people are just trying to help you become a better bridge player. No one is attacking you, initially, nearly always. That only comes after you get irrationally defensive and whiny when someone suggests a possible improvement in something and you say you don't want to hear it. Be willing to accept help, we aren't insulting you. No one starts out as a super-expert bridge player right away.

[thepossum]

Stephen Tu, on 2020-September-30, 20:24, said:

GIB doesn't play crawling Stayman. My point is that even if North bids stayman then 2H over 2D, with GIB this is invitational 4-5 in the majors, South has a super hand for this auction and should accept. So you end up in 4H anyway.

It's a bit too strong IMO to just transfer to 2H and pass, because there's too much potential opposite fit in either major.

Yes GF Smolen is an overbid; it's overvaluing the void opposite probable wastage, and doesn't account for hands where partner doesn't have heart fit at all where you are likely hopelessly overboard. But GIB doesn't really have sophisticated evaluation skills, it sees 10 total points and in its mind that = GF in this situation. It probably should be tweaked to require a bit more in HCP.

Yes it's not the greatest contract in the world, but just play better and give yourself a chance.

Neither of hrothgar's proposed auctions make any sense IMO. I would never give up on spades by transferring, and 2H is clearcut over 2D response. Even if 2H were not inv over 2D, and was being played as crawling (weak with both majors), I would much rather signoff in 2H than bid 2nt on this shape concealing the hearts and inviting 3nt on a 7 count.

I know if I play better I give myself a better chance. I think my strengths are bidding contracts and having better people make them for me. I would have been happy to make 2 or 3 hearts. Not sure if I would have made the 3NT either But in all honesty if I had held North's hand I wouldn't have rated it that high for a game force option in one or other majors. The spades are very ordinary, 7 losers (it looks like 8), despite the void etc

One thing I am interested in regarding Smolen is that despite us having more trumps in hearts than spades, as south I didn't really feel like I had a preference for a major contract and possibly should have bid No Trumps. But I dont know all the options for Smolen etc

EDIT. I just checked and one North bot did make 4 spades because their human south clearly preferred their spades to their hearts, despite having one fewer But it seems most of the smart crowd were in 3NT contracts on this hand. But to be honest I'm still looking for my 9th trick

But on hand 1 I feel on safer ground and would even have considered an immediate 6 diamond bid

[Stephen Tu]

thepossum, on 2020-September-30, 20:51, said:

But on hand 1 I feel on safer ground and would even have considered an immediate 6 diamond bid

6D is way too optimistic. As the hand lies you can't even make 5D. Both 5D and 4S are good sacs against their 4H though.

[helene_t]

Stephen Tu, on 2020-September-30, 21:03, said:

Both 5D and 4S are good sacs against their 4H though.

Yeah but it's very lucky that 4♥ makes. Just because South can't beat ♦8.

[Stephen Tu]

helene_t, on 2020-September-30, 21:26, said:

Yeah but it's very lucky that 4♥ makes. Just because South can't beat ♦8.

Well, even if South had the D8, I don't think as North anyone is going to:
1. Pass 4H
2. Find the spade lead
without getting the self-kibitzing police involved.

[thepossum]

I ran a quick Sim on the Smolen hand

From North's perspective the chances of any of the 3 games did not really look worth a game forcing bid (very ordinary chances in fact )
From South's perspective once you get the Smolen bid the chances of all 3 games look good

Regarding the diamonds, more seriously I would have considered an immediate 5D on a more casual expansive day (maybe not 6 )