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ACBL tournaments Announcements and alerts

#1 User is offline   kmb111621 

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Posted 2020-October-25, 15:32

It would be nice if the ACBL events were consistent on the announcement of opening 1NT range. During the regional events, it was required to announce range, now during the pairs events is not required. When it is required, the last announcement at start of event should be that opening NT range must be announced.
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#2 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 11:14

Yet again, "In the ACBL, clubs make their own rules to best serve their clients" strikes with a vengeance. Also again, when the clubs do make rules that don't follow the ACBL recommendations, it causes problems when their players play at a tournament (even the Regional at Home).

Most clubs I have seen that allow the WeaSeL defence to 1NT don't require Announcement of 15-17 make said announcement in their beginning-of-tourney ("you may assume 1NT opening is 15-17 unless Announced" or the like). I believe that the ACBL believes that is the direction it should go - ACBL recommendations apply unless overridden.

Note that the BBO ACBL events are the BBO "club", which may also have this rule; I don't know, not having played in those events recently, and not having played a 15-17 NT since a fill-in game in January (and always announcing "15-17" like I'm supposed to even in clubs that would allow this, for a number of reasons).

Note that many of those who believe that 15-17 shouldn't have to be mentioned also believe that transfers also don't need to be Announced. I do hope this comes back to bite them when playing against H and G (who, correctly, don't Announce or Alert their 2 or 2 bids).
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#3 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 13:29

View Postmycroft, on 2020-October-26, 11:14, said:

Note that many of those who believe that 15-17 shouldn't have to be mentioned also believe that transfers also don't need to be Announced. I do hope this comes back to bite them when playing against H and G (who, correctly, don't Announce or Alert their 2 or 2 bids).

These are the same people who don't believe that one needs to announce/alert inferences from superaccepts not made.
Unfortunately, such people (barmar excluded :)) also seem to end up writing the announce/alert rules in most RAs.
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#4 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 14:56

View Postpescetom, on 2020-October-26, 13:29, said:

These are the same people who don't believe that one needs to announce/alert inferences from superaccepts not made.
Unfortunately, such people (barmar excluded :)) also seem to end up writing the announce/alert rules in most RAs.

If a superaccept is always made with four cards, then a regular accept showing three or fewer should definitely be alerted. Otherwise, the fact that they didn’t make a superaccept is obvious by inspection. So why alert it? Indeed, why not alert every bid?

If you want to know what their superaccepts are, ask them. Whatever their scheme is, all you will really learn is that they don’t have 4 cards and a maximum.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#5 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 17:00

I'm really not sure how that went from what I said.

What I was saying is that I see the following auction quite frequently:
(or, Saturday:
) with the (lack of) Alerts specified.

What I continue to say is that this auction is also fairly common, with a pair I frequently play with and against:
, and I have a piece of Schadenfruede Pie waiting for the day one of the "don't have to Announce Transfers, either, because Everybody Plays Them, too" people get caught with a bunch of spades, "but I would have balanced if I knew it wasn't a transfer!"

Replying to the digression (because the fact that transfers have to be Announced (or Alerted, for a short time longer) is black-letter, players' belief that "why should I have to say something when we play the 'normal' way?" notwithstanding):

The ACBL believes that many if not most negative inferences are not Alertable. So if you superaccept with all hands with 4 trump, then failure to superaccept is explicitly Not Alertable (in the partnership I play this, I do anyway). If failure to support double *tends to deny* (or, *actually denies*) 3 trump, again, the pass is Not Alertable. And so on.

The Draft Alert Procedure doesn't even mention either of those as a possibility (except by negative inference in the "natural bids" section, where it carefully does not say "do not Alert [bids not in this list]", in case your Natural call is odd enough that you really believe the opponents would be damaged by the silence.

Other RAs have other ideas.
When I go to sea, don't fear for me, Fear For The Storm -- Birdie and the Swansong (tSCoSI)
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#6 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 20:57

View Postmycroft, on 2020-October-26, 17:00, said:

I'm really not sure how that went from what I said.

What I was saying is that I see the following auction quite frequently:
(or, Saturday:
) with the (lack of) Alerts specified.

What I continue to say is that this auction is also fairly common, with a pair I frequently play with and against:
, and I have a piece of Schadenfruede Pie waiting for the day one of the "don't have to Announce Transfers, either, because Everybody Plays Them, too" people get caught with a bunch of spades, "but I would have balanced if I knew it wasn't a transfer!"

Replying to the digression (because the fact that transfers have to be Announced (or Alerted, for a short time longer) is black-letter, players' belief that "why should I have to say something when we play the 'normal' way?" notwithstanding):

The ACBL believes that many if not most negative inferences are not Alertable. So if you superaccept with all hands with 4 trump, then failure to superaccept is explicitly Not Alertable (in the partnership I play this, I do anyway). If failure to support double *tends to deny* (or, *actually denies*) 3 trump, again, the pass is Not Alertable. And so on.

The Draft Alert Procedure doesn't even mention either of those as a possibility (except by negative inference in the "natural bids" section, where it carefully does not say "do not Alert [bids not in this list]", in case your Natural call is odd enough that you really believe the opponents would be damaged by the silence.

Other RAs have other ideas.


EBU players are pretty diligent about announcing NT ranges, Stayman and Jacoby/Texas transfers; both online and in person. I’m not sure about alerting a simple accept which denies four trumps, because not a whole lot of people play it, or maybe they do but I have not played against them when the matter came up. I am pretty sure that this is alertable in the EBU. In any case, it should be. The ACBL seem, the past few years, to be moving in the wrong direction in the area of alert regulations. Of course SOP in the ACBL is the players’ non-compliance tail wagging the regulatory dog.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#7 User is online   mycroft 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 23:03

Your last sentence I am the last person to argue about.

The Alertability or otherwise of things like "very weak openers or preempts", or "superaccepts on all 4-trump", or 1 Precision-4 "could be a flat 13" depends strongly on how much the relevant RA believes people should be surprised by them. In the ACBL, the belief is that "Natural treatments are not surprising, except (list), Artificial ones are surprising, except (other list)". There's a level above "people would expect that, even if it's not common" and "some pairs will do it, but you probably can count them without removing your shoes" where things move from "surprising and Alertable" to "uncommon and not Alertable".

I think for the superaccept thing, recommended Active Ethics says "don't alert 1NT-2; 2, but if you declare, explain the inference before the opening lead". Given the prevalence of the LOTT in the world, I think "we follow the Law when it's not obviously wrong" (or even when it is!) is not uncommon enough that you shouldn't expect it.
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#8 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-26, 23:32

View Postmycroft, on 2020-October-26, 23:03, said:

Your last sentence I am the last person to argue about.

The Alertability or otherwise of things like "very weak openers or preempts", or "superaccepts on all 4-trump", or 1 Precision-4 "could be a flat 13" depends strongly on how much the relevant RA believes people should be surprised by them. In the ACBL, the belief is that "Natural treatments are not surprising, except (list), Artificial ones are surprising, except (other list)". There's a level above "people would expect that, even if it's not common" and "some pairs will do it, but you probably can count them without removing your shoes" where things move from "surprising and Alertable" to "uncommon and not Alertable".

I think for the superaccept thing, recommended Active Ethics says "don't alert 1NT-2; 2, but if you declare, explain the inference before the opening lead". Given the prevalence of the LOTT in the world, I think "we follow the Law when it's not obviously wrong" (or even when it is!) is not uncommon enough that you shouldn't expect it.


In the EBU there is nothing that is explained after the auction unless a question is asked, so the 3- simple accept should be (and I think is) alertable.

The EBU alert regulations don’t really need lists like the ones you mention above. There is a consistent underlying philosophy. For example 2-level opening bids (and some at the one level, ie 1NT and short club) are announced if natural and alerted if not. This scheme mainly continues throughout the auction. For doubles below 3NT, you alert over a NT bid unless it is penalty, and over a suit bid unless it is takeout. Occasionally this is counter-intuitive, but simplicity and consistency make the regulations much easier to grasp and remember.

I kind of think lists are a poor idea, because they can never be exhaustive. And judging how likely people are to be surprised seems not only a poor approach but also impossible; if I went to play in the North I would probably be surprised by everything.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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#9 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2020-October-27, 15:53

View PostVampyr, on 2020-October-26, 14:56, said:

If a superaccept is always made with four cards, then a regular accept showing three or fewer should definitely be alerted. Otherwise, the fact that they didn’t make a superaccept is obvious by inspection. So why alert it? Indeed, why not alert every bid?

If you want to know what their superaccepts are, ask them. Whatever their scheme is, all you will really learn is that they don’t have 4 cards and a maximum.


I agree with all your posts here except this one, and even then I agree with the first sentence.
The fact that they did not make a superaccept is only obvious if you know or assume they are playing superaccepts.
Why should one make this assumption? And which superaccepts, with what meanings and rules?
The duty is on them to explain their methods when not natural, as always.
The duty is on us to make the due inferences, on an equal footing.

And no, it is not a great idea (although my right) that I ask about any superaccepts when they simply complete a transfer without alert. It might convey (rightly or wrongly) a message of particular interest in the suit.

Nor are superaccept methods limited to 4 cards and a maximum: we show 3 cards maximum, 4 cards any strength and 5 cards any strength, for instance. I think our opponents have a right to know that, and not just when we do superaccept.
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#10 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2020-October-28, 10:38

View Postkmb111621, on 2020-October-25, 15:32, said:

It would be nice if the ACBL events were consistent on the announcement of opening 1NT range. During the regional events, it was required to announce range, now during the pairs events is not required. When it is required, the last announcement at start of event should be that opening NT range must be announced.

There are different sponsoring organizations involved, and SOs get to set their own alerting rules. ACBL encourages clubs to copy their regulations, but doesn't require it.

Regionals follow the rules ACBL enforces at f2f tourneys, so all NT ranges have to be announced.

Speedballs are sponsored by BBO, not ACBL. For expediency, the rule there is that anything other than 15-17 must be announced, and this is sent as a message to the players when the tourney starts.

Virtual club games are sponsored by the individual clubs. Most clubs follow the ACBL regulations.

#11 User is offline   Vampyr 

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Posted 2020-October-28, 14:07

View Postpescetom, on 2020-October-27, 15:53, said:

The fact that they did not make a superaccept is only obvious if you know or assume they are playing superaccepts.
Why should one make this assumption? And which superaccepts, with what meanings and rules?
The duty is on them to explain their methods when not natural, as always.
The duty is on us to make the due inferences, on an equal footing.


Nearly everyone has some version of superaccepts.

Quote

And no, it is not a great idea (although my right) that I ask about any superaccepts when they simply complete a transfer without alert. It might convey (rightly or wrongly) a message of particular interest in the suit.


If you just ask in general? No.

Quote

Nor are methods limited to 4 cards and a maximum: we show 3 cards maximum, 4 cards any strength and 5 cards any strength, for instance. I think our opponents have a right to know that, and not just when we do superaccept.


They can ask. Also be sure to have it marked clearly on your card.

Also, it is likely that the opponents, if they need to know about your superaccept scheme, will need to know in the play, not in the auction. They can ask then.

You will never convince people to accept a transfer and give the explanation “this is not a superaccept”. Denying a specific number of cards is another matter.
I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones -- Albert Einstein
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