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Limit Raise vs Jacoby 2NT

#1 User is offline   arepo24 

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Posted 2021-March-13, 10:01

Hello:
I realize that if my partner opens a major and I have 4 or more in his/her suit and 13+ pts I can employ Jacoby 2NT as long as op has not intervened with a bid.
But what if I have an evenly distributed hand but only 10-12 points and want to jump to 2NT.
How do I distinguish the difference for my partner so they won't think I am bidding Jacoby 2NT?
Please remind me what the right thing is to bid. At my age the brain cells are starting to fall.
Thanks so much.

PS. I realize that my title heading is incorrect. If I wanted to bid a limit raise I would simply jump with my 4 in their suit to 3 of their bid suit.
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#2 User is online   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-March-13, 10:27

 arepo24, on 2021-March-13, 10:01, said:

How do I distinguish the difference for my partner so they won't think I am bidding Jacoby 2NT?


Playing face to face, you can place 2NT sideways, or fail to use the STOP card if your country still has one.
On BBO, you can wait precisely 10 seconds, or chat something starting with J B-)

Just kidding of course. But obviously your system (what is it?) will have other bids for the hands you would like to bid a natural 2NT with, if 2NT is Jacoby here.
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#3 User is online   AL78 

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Posted 2021-March-13, 12:17

If you are playing Jacoby, you can't use 2NT to show a flat hand with 10-12 HCP. That is one of the costs of adopting a convention, you lose the natural meaning for the bid. You have to decide if the benefits of the convention outweigh the loss of the natural meaning. In this case, if you are playing some variant of Acol, it is a minimal loss, since if you have enough HCP to respond 2NT, you have enough to bid a suit at the two level, so you can do this followed by 2NT which effectively says the same thing. The one awkward hand where partner opens 1 and you have precisely 3433 shape with around 11 HCP, you can start by bidding your best three card minor, and what you do after that will depend on what partner bids.
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#4 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-March-13, 12:32

If it helps, my partner and I play Acol with Jacoby 2NT. We play that responder's 2NT always shows support.

With no opposition bidding: 2NT is Jacoby
After an opponent doubles: 2NT is a sound raise to three (most Acol players do this)
After an opponent overcalls: 2NT is a sound raise to three
If responder is a passed hand: 2NTis a sound raise to three


We play this over majors and minors alike. I am sure that there are technically superior methods, but it is simple and easy to remember.
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#5 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-March-13, 12:36

In modern 5 cd M systems, to invite in NT without a fit, you generally bid 1nt which is either forcing or "semi-forcing" (aka non-forcing, but with a wider range than old-fashioned standard), then bid 2nt. Opener either isn't allowed to pass 1nt or won't pass with any hand that would accept game over a 1nt ... 2nt sequence.

In most 4cM systems, and some older 5cM systems, you bid 2/1 followed by 2nt, which is NF.
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#6 User is offline   arepo24 

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Posted 2021-March-13, 14:48

 AL78, on 2021-March-13, 12:17, said:

If you are playing Jacoby, you can't use 2NT to show a flat hand with 10-12 HCP. That is one of the costs of adopting a convention, you lose the natural meaning for the bid. You have to decide if the benefits of the convention outweigh the loss of the natural meaning. In this case, if you are playing some variant of Acol, it is a minimal loss, since if you have enough HCP to respond 2NT, you have enough to bid a suit at the two level, so you can do this followed by 2NT which effectively says the same thing. The one awkward hand where partner opens 1 and you have precisely 3433 shape with around 11 HCP, you can start by bidding your best three card minor, and what you do after that will depend on what partner bids.

Very helpful. Thanks
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#7 User is offline   fromageGB 

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Posted 2021-March-14, 11:40

You have a 2NT bid or rebid (unless partner expresses something which would give you a better rebid) and the simple answer is that if you can't bid 2NT now because it would be artificial, start by bidding something that would be forcing in your system (as described by others above) and then rebid 2NT.

While you are doing that, try not to lie too much. Bidding a major on a 3 card suit is frowned upon, so if you can't bid 1NT because system says it misdescribes the strength, then you need to bid 2m. Pick your longer. If partner raises to 3m you are best then bidding 3NT if it were 3 cards.

Good principle for failing brain cells : if the working cells say that a bid is wrong then bid something else!
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#8 User is offline   Zelandakh 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 07:31

If you think about it, you would probably only have responded with a natural 2NT response if you had (half) stoppers in every unbid suit, so mentally move any honours in your shortest suit to your longest. Now what would you have bid? Almost certainly a simple change of suit, right? So that is what you do playing J2NT. The only thing you have lost is in your 2NT rebid being slightly less well-defined but this tends not to be a real issue, whereas not having an initial GF raise can make auctions much more complicated. This is one good reason why so few expert players use a natural, invitational 2NT response to a 1M opening.
(-: Zel :-)

Happy New Year everyone!
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#9 User is offline   blackshoe 

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Posted 2021-April-07, 09:25

I like the "invitational or better with four card support" approach for 2NT rather than Jacoby. Along with that, the sequence 1M-1NT-2X-2NT shows the balanced no fit invite. If 1NT is only semi-forcing, opener might pass, but if he does you're better off playing in 1NT rather than 2NT any way.
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