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I have a hand for you

#1 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-19, 22:12



IMPS, 2/1 Forums std gadgets.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#2 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-April-19, 22:57

Well, 2 seems obvious..? I'm guessing this is another progressive post and you haven't actually gotten to your question yet :)
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#3 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 00:43

I wouldnít reverse, on this auction, with all 17 counts and a stiff spade, but this hands is far too strong for anything else. 3C hides the hearts and, if partner has a fit for either clubs or hearts, itís an underbid as well.


So 2H.....and await the response.
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#4 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 01:33

With the parameters in the OP, 2 seems obvious.

This is another hand where a GF unbalanced 2N of the type I play are really useful.
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#5 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 04:54

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-April-19, 22:57, said:

Well, 2 seems obvious..? I'm guessing this is another progressive post and you haven't actually gotten to your question yet :)


yes! my guess partner now bids 2, then what do you bid? if p. bids any other bid the auction is better. only 2 bid and opener with this big hand >22k+r should bid again. I play reverse 1 - (1) - 2as not gf and one round force only. but if opener now bids 3 or 2nt (not good bid) that for me can be passed. maybe cyberyeti system 2nt rebid as gf here work better.
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#6 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 04:57

The rebid was definitely in question, some rebid 2, others 1nt (15-17).
Those who rebid 1nt stopped in 3nt. This was the auction at my table;




Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 06:08

Judging a hand where 6/6N(S) are great contracts but go off because clubs are 4-1 is not that helpful, reasonable auction.
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#8 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 07:30

Rebidding 1N, to show a balanced 15-17 reveals a basic lack of understanding of the game. No competent bridge player would do that. Itís wrong on strength and shape...the two basic criteria for making bidding decisions.

I really, really donít like 3D either. What on earth was the point?

Qxxx is not a suit that ought to be shown. There is zero chance that diamonds should ever be trump. And zero reason to pretend that that spade suit is 4 cards long.

Bid 2S. Itís forcing...the reverse promised another bid.

Now opener rebids 3C, to show a 4-6 hand. This is passable....picture responder as KQxxx Jxx xxx xx

Over 3C, now is the time to bid a temporizing 3D, since the hand is (a) too strong to bid 3N, (b) too weak to drive to slam (picture x KQJx Kx AKQxxx), © not sure 3N is best (picture Jx AKxx x AKQxxx)

Opener bids 3N

Now responder bids 4N...partner showing at most a stiff spade makes driving to slam dubious but th3 hand is far too strong to pass 3N

Whether south bids slam now is an interesting question that I donít think I can answer objectively, knowing that, as it happens, slam fails. If gopher were to bid, I think 6C is a better call than 6N, since itís easy to construct hands where ruffing power adds a trick.

Bidding over reverses is a difficult bidding issue and probably, in my experience, one of the weakest parts of non-expert bridge.
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#9 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 09:13

View Postmikeh, on 2021-April-20, 07:30, said:

Rebidding 1N, to show a balanced 15-17 reveals a basic lack of understanding of the game. No competent bridge player would do that. Itís wrong on strength and shape...the two basic criteria for making bidding decisions.

I really, really donít like 3D either. What on earth was the point?

Qxxx is not a suit that ought to be shown. There is zero chance that diamonds should ever be trump. And zero reason to pretend that that spade suit is 4 cards long.

Bid 2S. Itís forcing...the reverse promised another bid.


Some partnerships might not agree. Can responder with six spades and a drop dead minimum never sign off in 2? I thought that responder rebidding their suit shows weakness and a long suit, and opener can pass with a minimum reverse and a misfit. Hence with a long spade suit and strength there has to be another way to force the bidding and locate a 5-3 fit, so that, I think, is the idea of going through FSF, to find out if opener has three card support. If you are playing Lebehsohl over reverses things are a bit different.
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#10 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 09:27

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-20, 09:13, said:

Some partnerships might not agree. Can responder with six spades and a drop dead minimum never sign off in 2? I thought that responder rebidding their suit shows weakness and a long suit, and opener can pass with a minimum reverse and a misfit. Hence with a long spade suit and strength there has to be another way to force the bidding and locate a 5-3 fit, so that, I think, is the idea of going through FSF, to find out if opener has three card support. If you are playing Lebehsohl over reverses things are a bit different.

ĎSome partnerships might not agreeí

True

There are a great many more bad players than good, hence we see a lot of bad agreements.

Iím not going to claim that NO good pairs play 2S here as passable, but Iíve never seen any good player espouse that idea, never played against any good pair that played it, never seen it advised by any good writer, and think, for a number of cogent reasons, that it is fundamentally unplayable. FWIW, Iíve read a LOT of bridge books, and literally more than 70 years worth of Bridge Worlds, and played probably more high level bridge than any other current regular poster.

Btw, not playing a form of ingberman or lebensohl here is a pretty bad idea, but I donít see it as germane to the argument. If you really want to cater to responder holding a weak hand with 6+ spades, use weak jumpshifts. I donít, by the way, and am very comfortable with playing 2S as ambiguous...it says nothing at all other than that responder had a 1 level response and has 5+ spades.
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#11 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 09:30

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-20, 09:13, said:

Some partnerships might not agree. Can responder with six spades and a drop dead minimum never sign off in 2?


Historically some people have played that way, but it's really disfavored these days by most good players. The problem is space consumption; having to bid 3d often is really awkward and constrains opener's options a lot compared to 2s (opener really shouldn't want to be bypassing 3nt very often when no fit has been established, you've cut his bidding options in half), in an auction where the reverse itself has already consumed a lot of space. Also the population of hands where 2S is the optimal last making contract is rather small so you don't win very often for having a NF 2S available in exchange for making your other auctions way more awkward.
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#12 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 09:48

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-20, 09:13, said:

Some partnerships might not agree. Can responder with six spades and a drop dead minimum never sign off in 2? I thought that responder rebidding their suit shows weakness and a long suit, and opener can pass with a minimum reverse and a misfit. Hence with a long spade suit and strength there has to be another way to force the bidding and locate a 5-3 fit, so that, I think, is the idea of going through FSF, to find out if opener has three card support. If you are playing Lebehsohl over reverses things are a bit different.


Some partnerships will have bid a WJS on the drop dead hand already.
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#13 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 10:39

I'm confused, and this may be "off-topic"; But I play that 2, while not necessarily minimum, is passable by a minimum reverser; to invite, go through 2NT/fourth suit, whichever is lower.

I don't see a great deal of difference between that and 2 forcing (but not necessarily GF), and 2NT, then 3 being the drop-dead.

Several people whose opinions I trust think this is 100% wrong, but I don't see why.

(Note: this really is Asking for Opinions, not disagreeing for points.)

I do like WJS m-M (only); but I only play them with one person.
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#14 User is offline   Stephen Tu 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 11:14

View Postmycroft, on 2021-April-20, 10:39, said:

I'm confused, and this may be "off-topic"; But I play that 2, while not necessarily minimum, is passable by a minimum reverser; to invite, go through 2NT/fourth suit, whichever is lower.

I don't see a great deal of difference between that and 2 forcing (but not necessarily GF), and 2NT, then 3 being the drop-dead.

Several people whose opinions I trust think this is 100% wrong, but I don't see why.


Being able to bid 2S F1 with the stronger hands gains you a step and thus a more descriptive rebid by opener. 3c shows usually extra length, both 2nt/3nt available for range differentiation. Also if 2nt mostly denies 5 cd spades (except the weak 5-4 hands trying to signoff in hearts), opener with 3415 can just rebid 3c and play there opposite responder's weak 4xx3/4xx4 hands that want to sign off in clubs, and not get to the 4 level. Whereas if 2nt can include strong hands with 5 you really kind of have to be able to bid 3s to complete the description. Plus if 2s can be strong, then you can utilize sequence like 1c-1s-2h-2s-3s-4c as cue bid in clubs, whereas you are bidding 1c-1s-2h-2nt!-3s-? now responder needs to be able to sign off in 4c?

2S NF just makes a lot of auctions considerably more awkward, for infrequent gain.

Now when 4th suit happens to be available and cheaper than 2M, like 1c-1s-2d-2h!, it's way more playable to have 2S be NF, but few do different things based on this due to memory load issues.
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#15 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 11:51

View Postmycroft, on 2021-April-20, 10:39, said:

I'm confused, and this may be "off-topic"; But I play that 2, while not necessarily minimum, is passable by a minimum reverser; to invite, go through 2NT/fourth suit, whichever is lower. I don't see a great deal of difference between that and 2 forcing (but not necessarily GF), and 2NT, then 3 being the drop-dead. Several people whose opinions I trust think this is 100% wrong, but I don't see why. (Note: this really is Asking for Opinions, not disagreeing for points.) I do like WJS m-M (only); but I only play them with one person.
Not playing weak jump shifts, IMO, there's a strong case for simple Lebensohl after a reverse auction, like 1 - 1 - 2 i.e.
  • 2 = NAT N/F MIN misfit. e.g. Jxxxxx Qxxxx xx -
  • 2 = NAT N/F MIN misfit. e.g. Qxxxxxx xxx xx x
  • 2N = ART Lebensohl suggests that partner bid 3; you can pass or bid 3. Rebids above 3 are at least INV.
  • 3... = F/G.

Although shunned by experts, for us, this has the advantage of simplicity and consistency.
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#16 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 12:32

South bid 3 asking for a diamond stopper, intending to bid on after 3nt.
I don't know if it was in fear that partner would pass 2S or a step on the way to Ace asking.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

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#17 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 13:07

Btw, I think it is a misnomer, and can cause confused thinking, to say that 2S here, over 2H, is Ďforcingí. That implies that it shows values.

It is Ďforcingí but only because, as commonly played in non big club methods, the reverse promises another bid. Since opener has said that he will not pass a non-game bid by responder, ANY non game bid by responder is Ďforcingí.

Get away from thinking that bidding 2S is a force, and maybe understanding why 2S is really a stalling tactic, albeit showing 5+ spades, may become easier.
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#18 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 13:54

1 1
2* 2

I think of the 2 bid here as a waiting bid, much like 2 2 waiting.
We play 2N Leb as a weak relay to 3C, partner has stretched to bid at the 1 level and wants to stop in 3x.
I know this isn't perhaps how it is intended or how others play it, and use 3S as invitational after 2N but for our memory constraints, it suits us.
I am still interested in transfer leb, but that will have to wait.
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#19 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 14:08

I'm glad I asked the question andc got some good responses about continuations after a reverse, as it has exposed something I need to discuss with my regular partners. One or two things I thought were the case are evidently not. I confess to never studying reverse auctions much as they hardly ever come up.

I can see why there might be some confusion: This page states that after a reverse, rebidding your own long suit shows a very weak hand (5-7 HCP) and at least five in the suit. Larry Cohen's page says the same bid is a one round force. It looks to me like something that needs to be discussed within a partnership.
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#20 User is online   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-April-20, 14:16

View PostAL78, on 2021-April-20, 14:08, said:

I can see why there might be some confusion: This page states that after a reverse, rebidding your own long suit shows a very weak hand (5-7 HCP) and at least five in the suit. Larry Cohen's page says the same bid is a one round force. It looks to me like something that needs to be discussed within a partnership.


This could be the difference between the kbbridge reverse showing 16+, and Cohen's 17-18+
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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