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good, bad or just ugly?

#1 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 14:34



2/1 usual forums gadgets. 4 is 1st/2nd round control
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#2 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 14:48

Are you playing serious 3nt?
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#3 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 15:02

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-May-06, 14:48, said:

Are you playing serious 3nt?

No, sorry! We tried it for a while but had too many disasters.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#4 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 15:53

Partner is making a slam try with no first or second round control in either black suit? The rest of their hand must be solid and my hand will be just what they need. Seven is likely to be on if they have the SQ, and I may be able to show that. If I cue 4S and then 5S that has to show the SA, SK and CA. Partner can take it from there.
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#5 User is online   DavidKok 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 16:04

I agree with sfi. We have some extras, in that we have nice aces and kings. I'd be worried about a club loser in 6 since the lead will be through our values. 4 seems like a fine bid. We don't know enough of partner's shape and strength to take control.

As an aside, there's a decent chance that 6NT (in our hand) will be better than 6 (in partner's hand). But in my experience whenever I get greedy like that it turns out partner bid on shape and I deeply regret it. So we will probably have to give up on that. Just bid the spades, and if partner persists with 5 it would be a close call between 5 ("I've said all I have to say"), 5NT ("Hey partner any extras? Also we might belong in something other than hearts.") and 6 ("I'm willing to gamble, but don't have enough extra for another positive bid"). I would probably bid 5 and trust partner knows that I have 'something' for bypassing 4.
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#6 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 16:21

This hand illustrates a very useful cuebidding principle.

Responder expressly denied a club control (opinions vary as to whether he’s denied a spade control, but he should not usually cue shortness in your suit as his first cue, and of course your holding confirms he has no Ace or King. Some play 1S 2H 3H 3S as natural, but I think increasingly the trend is to forget about spades as trump and use 3S as a cue...discuss with partner)

So for you to go beyond game necessarily implies you have a club control. Therefore 4S promises controls in both black suits.

This may well allow him to use keycard.

As an aside, do you show number of kings or specific kings in response to a king ask?
'one of the great markers of the advance of human kindness is the howls you will hear from the Men of God' Johann Hari
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#7 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 17:23

View Postsfi, on 2021-May-06, 15:53, said:

Partner is making a slam try with no first or second round control in either black suit? The rest of their hand must be solid and my hand will be just what they need. Seven is likely to be on if they have the SQ, and I may be able to show that. If I cue 4S and then 5S that has to show the SA, SK and CA. Partner can take it from there.

I had similar thoughts but decided a heart loser was a genuine risk so a direct 6h seems reasonable
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#8 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 17:40

Specific Kings
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#9 User is offline   cherdano 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 17:40

View PostWinstonm, on 2021-May-06, 17:23, said:

I had similar thoughts but decided a heart loser was a genuine risk so a direct 6h seems reasonable

If only there was a convention to find out whether we have all aces and the top three trumps...
The easiest way to count losers is to line up the people who talk about loser count, and count them. -Kieran Dyke
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#10 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 17:46

We don't have the agreement of 4S showing both black controls. Yes, we should, it makes a lot of sense.
I bid 4S kickback/keycard, partner replied 2 without the Q, I signed off in 5H =

I will post the full hand later, at the moment I am typing this on my teeny tiny phone keyboard.
Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#11 User is offline   Winstonm 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 18:39

View Postcherdano, on 2021-May-06, 17:40, said:

If only there was a convention to find out whether we have all aces and the top three trumps...

Yes. but what about the club loser?😏
"Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." Black Lives Matter. / "I need ammunition, not a ride." Zelensky
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#12 User is offline   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 19:09

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-06, 17:46, said:

We don't have the agreement of 4S showing both black controls. Yes, we should, it makes a lot of sense.
I bid 4S kickback/keycard, partner replied 2 without the Q, I signed off in 5H =

If 4S is keycard, then 4N shows the black controls, doesn't it? Though of course it bypasses the keycard ask so not as useful here.
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#13 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 19:54

View Postsmerriman, on 2021-May-06, 19:09, said:

If 4S is keycard, then 4N shows the black controls, doesn't it? Though of course it bypasses the keycard ask so not as useful here.


Yes, it would if we had that agreement.



Searching for your own mistakes is the only way to learn this game. - Fluffy

And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly. - MikeH

SLOW DOWN! This is not a speedball :)
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#14 User is offline   LBengtsson 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 21:33

well bid, jellybean! it is a d difficult hand to bid except in precision.
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#15 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-May-06, 23:32

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-06, 15:02, said:

No, sorry! We tried it for a while but had too many disasters.

I didn't get on well with serious/frivolous NT either and now use 3NT to deny 2+ of the top 3 honours or 1+ if supporting partner. In this case it will avoid the slam in .

I wouldn't bid the grand available in or NT and would likely sign-off in 4/3NT as West rather than looking for the NT slam. 3NT looks better since East must have honours to make his point count for a slam try

Just back from an early morning spin class so thought I would complete the post.

Continued Q bidding after 3NT would show a top honour and a remaining interest in a slam, while bidding above 4 would be a NT slam try in whatever approach you use. I would use 4 to show an even number of Aces with other bids showing an odd number of Aces and a King in the suit bid with 4NT representing in this case.
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#16 User is online   sfi 

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Posted 2021-May-07, 00:55

View Postjillybean, on 2021-May-06, 17:46, said:

We don't have the agreement of 4S showing both black controls. Yes, we should, it makes a lot of sense.

You don't really need the agreement - it's just a matter of logic. Opener has denied control in either black suit, so responder must have some assurance that the side has at most one loser there. Otherwise they would just sign off in game.

This means 4S (or 4NT if playing kickback) shows first-round control in one and second in the other. Similarly, a followup of 5S suggests grand so must show first-round control in both black suits. Since any other grand slam try would also show that, it should also show the SK.
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#17 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-May-07, 02:28

It's a bit old fashioned, but I think an immediate 5 over 4 would say "I've got good controls but poor trumps".
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#18 User is offline   nige1 

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Posted 2021-May-07, 08:07

View Postcherdano, on 2021-May-06, 17:40, said:

If only there was a convention to find out whether we have all aces and the top three trumps...
:) Cherdano's key-card convention might get you to mw64ahw's 6N+1 :)
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#19 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-May-07, 15:09

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-May-06, 23:32, said:


I didn't get on well with serious/frivolous NT either and now use 3NT to deny 2+ of the top 3 honours or 1+ if supporting partner. In this case it will avoid the slam in .

I wouldn't bid the grand available in or NT and would likely sign-off in 4/3NT as West rather than looking for the NT slam. 3NT looks better since East must have honours to make his point count for a slam try

Just back from an early morning spin class so thought I would complete the post.

Continued Q bidding after 3NT would show a top honour and a remaining interest in a slam, while bidding above 4 would be a NT slam try in whatever approach you use. I would use 4 to show an even number of Aces with other bids showing an odd number of Aces and a King in the suit bid with 4NT representing in this case.


Late to the post, but as an exponent of indifferentiated control-bids here is my 2 cents.

I agree with mw64ahw that non-serious 3NT is better limited to indicating unexpectedly poor trump honours, rather than a generic red flag which a perfect partner might interpret correctly (although I concede in this case there would be little doubt).

FWIW our auction here would probably go:

1N 2 (xfer )
2 3 (xfer )
3 3N (worried about trump honours)
4...

At this point East probably should pass, but knowing we have 32+ HCP on the line I would probably punt 6N vulnerable at teams.
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