[pilowsky]

This comes from a club game.
I was South. We were playing 2/1.
What should I bid now?

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The full hand.

Spoiler

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[DavidKok]

3♠, show your support.

[Cyberyeti]

 DavidKok, on 2021-August-09, 04:09, said:

3♠, show your support.

I don't play 2/1 but I presume 3♠ is better than 4, so is this a 4♠ bid ? May also depend how many extras 3♦ shows.

[jillybean]

3♠, what did 3♦ show?

[DavidKok]

 Cyberyeti, on 2021-August-09, 04:22, said:

I don't play 2/1 but I presume 3♠ is better than 4, so is this a 4♠ bid ? May also depend how many extras 3♦ shows.

It is, and I guess the nuances depend on partnership agreements. I would only bid 4♠ with utter dregs, hands that sort of regret bidding 2♥ but can't go back now (ironically, in my system this hand would bid 2NT instead of 2♥, but in standard 2/1 this is the right bid). This hand is a minimum with respect to both points and shape, but the ♠QJx and ♦Qxx are pulling full weight on the auction, and we have two outside controls. I'll brave 3♠ and sign off as soon as possible. I also play both Last Train and Serious NT on the auction over 3♠ so I'm not worried about getting too high too quickly.

An example of a 4♠ bid would be ♠xxx, ♥KQxxx, ♦A, ♣QJxx. Get out immediately.

[hrothgar]

FWIW, I don't find the answer here to be at all obvious.

You have a soft 13 count.
The 3♦ bid does improve your hand somewhat (that Queen of Diamonds is looking mighty nice)
Balanced against this, that broken heart suit doesn't look to be pulling its full weight any more.

In some ways, bidding 4♠ as a picture bid isn't completely unreasonable.
I'm torn because this kinda buries the Ace of clubs which could be a really important value.

Note: There is a difference between a picture bid and fast arrival (fast arrival would limit the strength of the hand and I don't recommend this treatment)

Change the hand to

♠ QJ7
♥ KJ865
♦ Q52
♣ KQ

And I'd be thrilled to bid 4♠

As is, I think that I am going to be forced to bid 3♠ which has the virtue of being a nice cheap bid.

[mw64ahw]

 DavidKok, on 2021-August-09, 04:32, said:

It is, and I guess the nuances depend on partnership agreements. I would only bid 4♠ with utter dregs, hands that sort of regret bidding 2♥ but can't go back now (ironically, in my system this hand would bid 2NT instead of 2♥, but in standard 2/1 this is the right bid). This hand is a minimum with respect to both points and shape, but the ♠QJx and ♦Qxx are pulling full weight on the auction, and we have two outside controls. I'll brave 3♠ and sign off as soon as possible. I also play both Last Train and Serious NT on the auction over 3♠ so I'm not worried about getting too high too quickly.

An example of a 4♠ bid would be ♠xxx, ♥KQxxx, ♦A, ♣QJxx. Get out immediately.

Likewise - I will show the support directly via 2NT with subsequent bids establishing relative strength.

Over 2♥ I would take it straight to 4♠ to deny extras. North should take it further with his hand

[Winstonm]

3S only because of the honors in partner’s suits. Like Richard, I don’t think it unreasonable to consider 4S but that would be with worse spades in this auction.

[fromageGB]

3♠, no question. P may be a powerhouse and you have good cards.

[jillybean]

Partner should have a decent hand for his 3♦ bid, then 3♠ is clear - what are your agreements here?

[Winstonm]

I don't want to give away the spoiler but do want to point out that this hand is a perfect example why its nice (I think critical for a good partnership) to have a serious/non-serious slam approach.

[jillybean]

 Winstonm, on 2021-August-09, 12:15, said:

I don't want to give away the spoiler but do want to point out that this hand is a perfect example why its nice (I think critical for a good partnership) to have a serious/non-serious slam approach.

How would that work here?

[DavidKok]

I haven't checked the spoiler (yet), but playing Serious/Non-serious 3NT over 3♠ would allow opener to distinguish a hand that really wants to probe for slam from a hand that just wants to be polite in case responder is probing for slam. For example, using Serious 3NT, any direct cue by opener would be 'courtesy' - possibly some extra values for the auction thus far but not enough to drive to slam even with all suits under control. By contrast, any powerhouse would bid 3NT first, which demands a control bid from responder (even on this minimum hand).
Of course if you play Non-serious 3NT the meanings are reversed.

Lastly if you play Last Train then any bid of 4♥, directly or indirectly (but after 3♠) would not be a control bid at all but would convey "I have some extras, but not enough extra to go past 4♠". Again this allows the partnership to distinguish courtesy control bids from serious slam tries.

[Winstonm]

 jillybean, on 2021-August-09, 12:18, said:

How would that work here?

The simplest and (for me) easiest to remember is that after a major suit fit is established at the 3-level a bid of 3nt shows a “serious” slam try. So in this case after 3S, opener can bid 4D as a non-serious or mild try and responder can sign off in 4S.

[pescetom]

 Winstonm, on 2021-August-09, 13:01, said:

The simplest and (for me) easiest to remember is that after a major suit fit is established at the 3-level a bid of 3nt shows a “serious” slam try. So in this case after 3S, opener can bid 4D as a non-serious or mild try and responder can sign off in 4S.

And in the opposite case of playing "non-serious", 3NT after 3S denies a serious slam try. Although I prefer to play it more specifically as expressing doubt about trump honours, particularly if 3♦ already promised some extra strength.

[Winstonm]

One final note about serious - it is not a gimmick but a response to the problem of cue bidding when there is little room to do so. If the major fit is found at the 2-level, there is no pressing need to distinguish strong verses shapely slam tries. If opener continues to cue bid after you fail to cooperate then you know he is strong.

[jillybean]

Ok, I've check the spoiler. Let's hope they are playing Serious 3NT.

[Gilithin]

 Winstonm, on 2021-August-09, 12:15, said:

I don't want to give away the spoiler but do want to point out that this hand is a perfect example why its nice (I think critical for a good partnership) to have a serious/non-serious slam approach.

You can only use Serious/Frivolous if 3♠ promises 3 card support. And you can only do that if 3♥ is your grope rather than promising a 6th heart. Otherwise, what are you going to bid with a 2533 hand and ♣xxx? My understanding of natural bidding is that 3♠ is usually 3+ but can sometimes be only 2 card support if stuck for a bid. And if that is the agreement then I am not so sure that Serious/Frivolous is actually such a great idea here.

[pilowsky]

Thanks everyone.
The auction continued

My partner was of the view that my bid of 3♠ suggested a hand with 16+ and 3 trumps and that a bid of 4♠ was more appropriate.
A stylistic thing I suppose.

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[DavidKok]

Let me give this sarcasm thing a try: I assume 4NT was quantitative, showing exactly 5=2=4=2 or 5=1=4=3 with solid clubs and a desire to play in 6NT?

In my partnership North has to initiate control bidding before it is possible to ask for keycards. Incidentally, this also leaves room for the (Non-)Serious NT and Last Train. Funny how that works out. A direct jump to 4NT would be NF natural for me, even on this auction. But it is clear you had a bidding misunderstanding about the meaning of 3♠, and I don't think you can recover after that no matter the method.