[svsmh]

 Winstonm, on 2021-August-12, 15:18, said:

---

What do you do?

[svsmh]

3 H

[svsmh]

3 H

[nullve]

 Gilithin, on 2021-August-13, 12:28, said:

What are you talking about? There are 16 total trumps.

 AL78, on 2021-August-13, 13:10, said:

Only if both sides play in their best fit. If they play in their major fits both are seven card fits so 14 total trumps.

GiB also says that EW can make 6 tricks in diamonds and NS 8 tricks in clubs. So if each side plays in their biggest fit there are 16 total trumps but only 14 total tricks.

.

[mycroft]

But that's not what the Law says (in most expressions of it, at least). Here's Wikipedia:

Quote

The total number of tricks available on a deal is equal to the total number of trump cards both sides hold in their respective best suits, where the total number of tricks is defined as the sum of the number of tricks available to each side if they could choose trumps.

Note how it doesn't say "playing in their longest suits", it says "if they could choose trumps". As an example, think of the many articles that talk about "the 4-4 fit here is better for slam than the 5-4 fit" (because you get a pitch).

Sure, *usually* a side's best trick result comes from playing in their longest fit. But it doesn't have to, and the Law doesn't require you to.

[Gilithin]

 nullve, on 2021-August-14, 04:36, said:

GiB also says that EW can make 6 tricks in diamonds and NS 8 tricks in clubs. So if each side plays in their biggest fit there are 16 total trumps but only 14 total tricks.

Tell you what - go away and learn what the LOTT actually is and then come back and we can have a debate about it. For everyone else, there are 16 total trumps and 17 total tricks, with indicators that the total tricks will be higher than the total trumps. YOu pretty much have to have an agenda to think this hand is disproving LOTT; objectively it is supporting evidence.

[Winstonm]

 mycroft, on 2021-August-14, 08:42, said:

But that's not what the Law says (in most expressions of it, at least). Here's Wikipedia:

Note how it doesn't say "playing in their longest suits", it says "if they could choose trumps". As an example, think of the many articles that talk about "the 4-4 fit here is better for slam than the 5-4 fit" (because you get a pitch).

Sure, *usually* a side's best trick result comes from playing in their longest fit. But it doesn't have to, and the Law doesn't require you to.

What I remember from To Bid or Not to Bid by Larry Cohen is that he added the further definition that you add the trumps when you play in your best fit. I took this to mean that if there is a 4-4 major and a 5-4 minor you use the minor as your best fit for LOTT purposes.

[nullve]

 Gilithin, on 2021-August-14, 09:55, said:

Tell you what - go away and learn what the LOTT actually is and then come back and we can have a debate about it. For everyone else, there are 16 total trumps and 17 total tricks, with indicators that the total tricks will be higher than the total trumps. YOu pretty much have to have an agenda to think this hand is disproving LOTT; objectively it is supporting evidence.

You seem to have used one pair of trump suits (clubs, diamonds) to get to 16 total trumps and a different pair (hearts, spades) to get to 17 total tricks.

[Gilithin]

 nullve, on 2021-August-14, 14:27, said:

You seem to have used one pair of trump suits (clubs, diamonds) to get to 16 total trumps and a different pair (hearts, spades) to get to 17 total tricks.

Well obviously. The number of total trumps is defined as the total number of trump cards both sides hold in their respective best fits while the number of total tricks is the sum of the number of tricks available to each side if they could choose trumps. The latter does not specify that the choice of trumps must be the same suit as chosen in the first part. As I wrote before, go away and actually learn about what you are talking about before trying to disprove it.

[nullve]

 Gilithin, on 2021-August-14, 14:47, said:

Well obviously. The number of total trumps is defined as the total number of trump cards both sides hold in their respective best fits while the number of total tricks is the sum of the number of tricks available to each side if they could choose trumps. The latter does not specify that the choice of trumps must be the same suit as chosen in the first part. As I wrote before, go away and actually learn about what you are talking about before trying to disprove it.

So total trumps is a property of the deal (and here equal to 16?) but I'm still free to choose trump suits (say, clubs and diamonds instead of hearts and spades) for the calculation of total tricks?

Btw, I'm not trying to disprove LoTT. (You obviously don't know me! )

[Winstonm]

Here is a quote describing LoTT from an article titled Eight Never, Nine Ever by Larry Cohen:

Quote

The reason is simple if you know the "Law of Total Tricks", a concept which has only recently received the attention it deserves. The Law states that the number of total trumps (add both side's best fit together) is approximately equal to the number of total tricks (add the number of tricks that both sides can take in their best suit).

my emphasis

[nullve]

Larry Cohen (To Bid or Not to Bid, p. 11) said:

Total Number of Tricks means the combined Total Tricks available to both sides (assuming best play and defense) if they play in their best (longest) fit.

[...]

Total Number of Trumps means the combined total of cards in both sides' best trump fit.

But then

Larry Cohen (To Bid or Not to Bid, p. 270 (glossary)) said:

Total Tricks - The Total number of tricks that both sides can make if they play in their best trump suit.

Total Trumps - The Total number of trumps on a deal using both partnerships' longest trump fit.

I can't see that he is defining 'best trump fit' or 'longest trump fit' anywhere in the book. So is he using these terms interchangably or is he defining 'total trumps' in two incompatible ways?

This post has been edited by nullve: 2021-August-19, 18:46

[Winstonm]

 nullve, on 2021-August-19, 13:26, said:

But then


I can't see that he is defining 'best trump fit' or 'longest trump fit' anywhere in the book. So is he using these terms interchangably or is he defining 'total tricks' in two incompatible ways?

What I remember and how I understood it by re-reading it was that for LoTT purposes best fit means the most combined number of cards, i.e., a 9-card fit or an 8-card fit, etc. But the most important thing about LoTT is that it is primarily a device to use in competition at the 3-level, though it can be somewhat useful otherwise.