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How do I force to game? Weekend survivor 3 October

#1 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-October-03, 02:21

Just found out the hard way that in GiB standard 2- 2 -4 is apparently not forcing. Left sittting in 4 with grand slam looking very respectable.
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#2 User is offline   spade7 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 00:52

In real life 4 is unconditionally forcing and 100% sets diamonds as trumps. After that responder should cue, bid 4NT; or sign off in 5 with absolutely nothing.
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#3 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 01:04

Yep. As far as I'm aware, jumping in a new suit is undefined for GIB.
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#4 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 01:44

View Postspade7, on 2021-October-04, 00:52, said:

In real life 4 is unconditionally forcing and 100% sets diamonds as trumps. After that responder should cue, bid 4NT; or sign off in 5 with absolutely nothing.


Thanks spade7, that's what I thought, but I was beginning to wonder if I was imagining it when GIB didn't recognise it.
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#5 User is offline   Huibertus 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 05:48

I've seen many issues with GF situations ending up in 4 minor playing with Robots. Even when they have made a bid that is annotated as a GF. I believe the robots are programmed to think 4 of a minor IS game.
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#6 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 06:16

My real life is different and for practical purposes GF is forcing to 3NT/4m/4M while 4 may or may not be forcing to game depending on prior bidding. In the above example I would view this as invitational only since with the requisite strength I would bid 5/move directly to a slam enquiry.

I'm assuming that 2 is preceded by 1M, given that 2 would be negative over a 2 opening.
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#7 User is offline   patcanuck 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 06:19

I've got a better one for you: I had a massive hand and yet partner opened with my best suit. Quickly bid 4NT and the bot said it had one honour only. No problem: depended on which honour so I gambled on slam anyhow. Dummy goes down and it has AK of trump!
A nice surprise but how can you rely on bots after what the original poster said and what so many have experienced.
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#8 User is offline   pes_6 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 06:59

GIBs have a lots of errors. It's not happy situation when you got GIB for partner in automated tourneys but sometime they are better players than random players. I don't know how it work with advanced GIBs, maybe they are better, and yes that sequence is apsolutly forcing for me.
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#9 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 08:14

View Postpatcanuck, on 2021-October-04, 06:19, said:

I've got a better one for you: I had a massive hand and yet partner opened with my best suit. Quickly bid 4NT and the bot said it had one honour only. No problem: depended on which honour so I gambled on slam anyhow. Dummy goes down and it has AK of trump!
A nice surprise but how can you rely on bots after what the original poster said and what so many have experienced.

In "expert standard", if you jump straight to Blackwood without first showing a fit (e.g. with Jacoby 2NT), it's old fashioned ace-asking, not Roman Keycard. Although I didn't think GIB had this understanding.

#10 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 09:18

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-October-04, 06:16, said:

My real life is different and for practical purposes GF is forcing to 3NT/4m/4M while 4 may or may not be forcing to game depending on prior bidding. In the above example I would view this as invitational only since with the requisite strength I would bid 5/move directly to a slam enquiry.

I'm assuming that 2 is preceded by 1M, given that 2 would be negative over a 2 opening.


Not in this case, 2 was an opening based on void, AKQ, AKQxxxx, KQx. Which Is why I found the pass somewhat disappointing (just to add insult to injury the Bot has A). Unfortunately neither does GiB seem to play a 4NT opening as "name an Ace", as I've played it for 40 years and never needed it before.
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#11 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 09:55

View PostDouglas43, on 2021-October-04, 09:18, said:

Not in this case, 2 was an opening based on void, AKQ, AKQxxxx, KQx. Which Is why I found the pass somewhat disappointing (just to add insult to injury the Bot has A). Unfortunately neither does GiB seem to play a 4NT opening as "name an Ace", as I've played it for 40 years and never needed it before.

Perhaps 3 would have been better, then at least the BOT can add 22/23 plus 4 to realise it needs to bid again. How many diamonds did it have?



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#12 User is offline   barmar 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 10:52

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-October-04, 06:16, said:

I'm assuming that 2 is preceded by 1M, given that 2 would be negative over a 2 opening.

GIB plays 2 response to 2 as waiting, not negative. It uses cheaper minor as a 2nd negative.

Unfortunately, it doesn't play that opener's jump in a suit shows a self-sufficient suit that sets trumps and asks responder to start cue bidding.

#13 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 13:07

View Postpatcanuck, on 2021-October-04, 06:19, said:

I've got a better one for you: I had a massive hand and yet partner opened with my best suit. Quickly bid 4NT and the bot said it had one honour only. No problem: depended on which honour so I gambled on slam anyhow. Dummy goes down and it has AK of trump!
A nice surprise but how can you rely on bots after what the original poster said and what so many have experienced.

Do you still have the hand record? I've seen GIB do a lot of weird stuff, but *never* get RKCB wrong.
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#14 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 13:17

Good bidding by GIB. Anybody can bid a grand with 13 top tricks. It takes "special" bidding to stop in a part score.
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#15 User is offline   Huibertus 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 13:18

View Postpes_6, on 2021-October-04, 06:59, said:

I don't know how it work with advanced GIBs, maybe they are better.



Me neither, but the performance of the standard bots is so poor at times I'd never consider paying for advanced bots. I fully understand there must be a performance difference in order to make anyone pay, but surely it can't be big, you have to build trust too in order to make people pay...
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#16 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2021-October-04, 14:39

View PostHuibertus, on 2021-October-04, 05:48, said:

I believe the robots are programmed to think 4 of a minor IS game.

A century ago, 6 of a minor was game. Maybe they are just ahead of their time.
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#17 User is offline   Douglas43 

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Posted 2021-October-05, 06:44

View Postmw64ahw, on 2021-October-04, 09:55, said:

Perhaps 3 would have been better, then at least the BOT can add 22/23 plus 4 to realise it needs to bid again. How many diamonds did it have?





It just had 1 diamond
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#18 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2021-October-05, 08:51

View Postbarmar, on 2021-October-04, 10:52, said:

GIB plays 2 response to 2 as waiting, not negative. It uses cheaper minor as a 2nd negative.

Unfortunately, it doesn't play that opener's jump in a suit shows a self-sufficient suit that sets trumps and asks responder to start cue bidding.

So I guess the 1st negative is 2 or waiting.😁
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#19 User is online   johnu 

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Posted 2021-October-05, 14:51

View Postpatcanuck, on 2021-October-04, 06:19, said:

I've got a better one for you: I had a massive hand and yet partner opened with my best suit. Quickly bid 4NT and the bot said it had one honour only. No problem: depended on which honour so I gambled on slam anyhow. Dummy goes down and it has AK of trump!
A nice surprise but how can you rely on bots after what the original poster said and what so many have experienced.

King only counts as a key card if it is in the trump suit. You may have known what trumps were supposed to be, but did GIB/partner?
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#20 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2021-October-05, 15:00

View Postjohnu, on 2021-October-05, 14:51, said:

King only counts as a key card if it is in the trump suit. You may have known what trumps were supposed to be, but did GIB/partner?

Well, the OP said GIB opened with the OP's best suit, and they bid 4NT; if there were no intervening bids left out of the story, then GIB did.

But yeah, there is definitely something wrong with the story, since if they were missing both AK of trumps then it's really not viable for slam to "depend on which honour" the bot had. So much more likely there would have been some misunderstanding on the human side here, rather than GIB getting the response wrong.
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