[DavidKok]

AL78, on 2022-January-08, 10:15, said:

This is s decent structure and is close to what I play in a regular partnership (without the mixed raise and 2NT showing a raise). One issue I see with this is if you remove 2NT as a natural bid and cue bids guarentee support, what do you do with invitational values and a flat hand with no 5 card suit and no direct support? I have heard the idea that 2NT is never natural in a competitive auction but I am not convinced about it.

On the auction shown my 1NT range is 8-11, and 2♣ and 2♥ are forcing. That covers most of the hands that come up. If I do have, say, 2=4=3=4 or even 2=4=4=3 with 12-13 HCP I am stuck and choose the smallest lie between 1NT and 2♣. But in my partnership ♠AQTxx, ♥xxx, ♦xx, ♣xxx is a fine 1♠ overcall while vulnerable, and we are prepared to dip a bit lower when not vulnerable. So with 12HCP and a misfit opposite I'm not even confident that we are safe in 1NT.
I hate playing 2NT as natural, especially in competitive auctions but also on constructive auctions. This is in an IMP context, at MPs it might be slightly more attractive, but 2NT is very rarely the par, and even if it is 3m is often also reasonable. I think I can count on one hand the number of auctions on which I play a natural 2NT (immediately after partner opens 1♦, on the second round if partner has opened 1NT, as an opening bid, on the auction 1m-(2M)-X-(P); 2NT (but I wish to play it as Good/Bad here), and perhaps some long and winding auctions where all other alternative interpretations have been excluded on earlier rounds). I don't remember who said it, but 2NT to play is like taking a holiday at the airport.

[mikeh]

AL78, on 2022-January-08, 10:15, said:

This is s decent structure and is close to what I play in a regular partnership (without the mixed raise and 2NT showing a raise). One issue I see with this is if you remove 2NT as a natural bid and cue bids guarentee support, what do you do with invitational values and a flat hand with no 5 card suit and no direct support? I have heard the idea that 2NT is never natural in a competitive auction but I am not convinced about it.

While David makes some good points, I do think that he has too many ways to raise spades, some of which bids might usefully be applied to other meanings

We play transfer advances, which I strongly recommend to any serious partnership.

(1D) 1S (p)

1N: constructive, natural

2C: we currently play as forcing one round but I prefer constructive…rarely passable but passable with dreck

2D: hearts. Overcaller bids as if advancer has a weak two in hearts…if he has more or a different hand, he’ll bid again. A classic sequence is 2D then 2S over 2H, showing doubleton spade, decent hearts and around 10-11 hcp.

2H: a transfer to 2S. Most often a constructive raise but may be stronger. Will not hold 4card support if more than constructive

2S: a noise. Weak. No game interest, simply wants to jam opener a bit

2N: opening hand, stoppers, invitational values

3C: fit jump. 9+ black cards, invitational or better values, forces to 3S but may bid again. Denies any A or K outside the blacks (unless strong)

3D: 4 card limit raise

3H: fit jump

3S: weak (I’m beginning to think mixed may be better, but s9 far we stay with weak)

3N: to play

4m: splinter. Good opening hand, 4+ spades, willing to investigate slam if overcaller thinks his hand meshes well

4H: splinter…probably better to play as natural, but we play it as splinter

4S: preempt but expects to have play much of the time. Weaker than splinters but almos always has shortness somewhere.


Now I count this, if each of the splinters count as a way of raising, we have 10 raises as well, lol.

[DavidKok]

I think transfer advances are superior, I just don't have any experience with them (and I wanted to sidestep the debate on where to start them - 1NT? 2♣? 2♦? Double, on certain auctions? If double is available is 1NT natural?). I think the total number of raises I suggested is not crazy, although perhaps slightly excessive. You could make a solid case that at least one can be cut: in my list 2NT, 3♦ and 3♠ show different strengths of 4-card spade raises, and it is becoming increasingly popular to ditch the weak raise (my 3♠) and play it as mixed, freeing up 3♦. Unfortunately having a spare bid at the 3-level (or, in your structure, 2NT) is not all that useful - you'd really like to free up a low-level bid, but that's a tough ask. On balance I'm not sure what the best allocation of the 3-level is. I mostly shared the structure because it is a) straight out of Robson & Segal and b) shows how far people are willing to go to distinguish the type of support they have for partner.

P.S.: If I counted correctly you have 9 ways to raise partner, since you freed up 2NT natural (and kicked out the mixed raise).
P.P.S: One problem with transfer advances is that partner cannot show doubt over the strong 3-card raise (for me: 2♦, partner can bid 2♥ as 'I do not have a minimum but can also not guarantee game'. With transfer advances advancer will bid 2♥, and there is no step to show this doubt). I believe some partnerships solve this by playing "transfer advances, but 2♣ always shows the strong raise" (which of course has its own complications).

[akwoo]

AL78, on 2022-January-08, 10:15, said:

This is s decent structure and is close to what I play in a regular partnership (without the mixed raise and 2NT showing a raise). One issue I see with this is if you remove 2NT as a natural bid and cue bids guarentee support, what do you do with invitational values and a flat hand with no 5 card suit and no direct support? I have heard the idea that 2NT is never natural in a competitive auction but I am not convinced about it.

My range for a nonvul 1♠ overcall is something like ♠KQT9x ♥xxx ♦xxxx ♣x to something like ♠KQxxx ♥KJ ♦KQxx ♣QJ. That's wider than my opening bid range. Opposite such a wide ranging partner, an invitational bid is useless. Anything that is enough for game opposite a near-maximum (or even slightly better than average) already puts you too high opposite a minimum.

(Yes such a wide range causes us problems, but it also causes opponents problems. And I'm still mostly punching up in the games I care about.)

My preference with balanced hands is to tend to advance with 1N with 8-12 (maybe a bad 13) and cue bid with anything stronger, so cue bids do not guarantee support (but partner should bid the next round as if they do(*)). Sometimes I'll pretend a good 4 card suit is a 5 carder and risk being dropped in a 4-2 fit.

(*) I don't mind taking a very round 0 instead of a slightly round 0 when the hands find a hole in our bidding system.

[DavidKok]

akwoo, on 2022-January-08, 18:22, said:

My range for a nonvul 1♠ overcall is something like ♠KQT9x ♥xxx ♦xxxx ♣x to something like ♠KQxxx ♥KJ ♦KQxx ♣QJ. That's wider than my opening bid range. Opposite such a wide ranging partner, an invitational bid is useless. Anything that is enough for game opposite a near-maximum (or even slightly better than average) already puts you too high opposite a minimum.

As I mentioned before, getting to good games and avoiding bad ones is not the primary goal. Advancer wishes to inform overcaller what the combined strength and level of fit of their hands is. The fact that overcalled is wide range makes this more important, if anything.

[pescetom]

mikeh, on 2022-January-08, 15:08, said:

We play transfer advances, which I strongly recommend to any serious partnership.

(1D) 1S (p)

1N: constructive, natural

2C: we currently play as forcing one round but I prefer constructive…rarely passable but passable with dreck

2D: hearts. Overcaller bids as if advancer has a weak two in hearts…if he has more or a different hand, he’ll bid again. A classic sequence is 2D then 2S over 2H, showing doubleton spade, decent hearts and around 10-11 hcp.

2H: a transfer to 2S. Most often a constructive raise but may be stronger. Will not hold 4card support if more than constructive

2S: a noise. Weak. No game interest, simply wants to jam opener a bit

2N: opening hand, stoppers, invitational values

3C: fit jump. 9+ black cards, invitational or better values, forces to 3S but may bid again. Denies any A or K outside the blacks (unless strong)

3D: 4 card limit raise

3H: fit jump

3S: weak (I’m beginning to think mixed may be better, but s9 far we stay with weak)

3N: to play

4m: splinter. Good opening hand, 4+ spades, willing to investigate slam if overcaller thinks his hand meshes well

4H: splinter…probably better to play as natural, but we play it as splinter

4S: preempt but expects to have play much of the time. Weaker than splinters but almos always has shortness somewhere.

Interesting, thanks.
Do you play the same if Responder doubles the overcall instead of passing?
Do you play the same if Responder raises a 1m opening (except for double = transfer to other minor)?
Is any of this still on after (1♦) 1♥ (2♦) or after (1♥) 1♠ ?

[mikeh]

pescetom, on 2022-January-09, 10:13, said:

Interesting, thanks.
Do you play the same if Responder doubles the overcall instead of passing?
Do you play the same if Responder raises a 1m opening (except for double = transfer to other minor)?
Is any of this still on after (1♦) 1♥ (2♦) or after (1♥) 1♠ ?

Transfers are on over responder’s negative double or 1N, as well as pass. Also, (1D) 1S (2C) 2D is a transfer

IOW the rule is that transfers are on if a two level cue of opener’s suit is available