[Shugart23]

when I have a 5332 distribution (with a Major), with NT HCP, I have made a decision to always open the hand 1NT....mostly for consistency. What about when partner opens 1NT and I have a 5332 distribution where the only real choice is to either transfer or pass.....Am I better off always passing or always transferring or looking at each hand and varying my approach ? Thank you ( Match point Play, not IMPS)

[bluenikki]

 Shugart23, on 2022-March-19, 06:05, said:

when I have a 5332 distribution (with a Major), with NT HCP, I have made a decision to always open the hand 1NT....mostly for consistency. What about when partner opens 1NT and I have a 5332 distribution where the only real choice is to either transfer or pass.....Am I better off always passing or always transferring or looking at each hand and varying my approach ? Thank you ( Match point Play, not IMPS)

In the long-ago "How to play winning bridge," Kaplan and Sheinwold reason this way. Playing the suit may or may not be better than playing in notrump. You can't know until you see both hands. But playing in the suit can never be a silly contract, while playing in notrump certainly can.

(This applies to hands with no ambition.)

Carl

[Shugart23]

 bluenikki, on 2022-March-19, 07:06, said:

In the long-ago "How to play winning bridge," Kaplan and Sheinwold reason this way. Playing the suit may or may not be better than playing in notrump. You can't know until you see both hands. But playing in the suit can never be a silly contract, while playing in notrump certainly can.

(This applies to hands with no ambition.)

Carl

So the people you are quoting seemingly fall into the camp of ALWAYS transfer.... But I don't know if they would make the same comment if strictly considering a 5332 distribution (opposite 1NT) where a part score is the best to be expected.

Thanks for the comment

[paulg]

This is not a decision that I worry about too much, as I always transfer unless it looks like a four-card suit (65432).

If you have the simple rule that you always transfer, then you save brain cells for more important decisions.

[Shugart23]

 paulg, on 2022-March-19, 07:43, said:

This is not a decision that I worry about too much, as I always transfer unless it looks like a four-card suit (65432).

If you have the simple rule that you always transfer, then you save brain cells for more important decisions.

Yes, sort of why I always open 1NT instead of the Major sometimes and NT at other times

Here is one thing I know (or think I know) . Playing 1NT going down 1, NV, is almost always a top in Match point, so I will hardly ever let my opponents play 1NT NV, especially if I am also NV. I am just wondering if there is a corollary to this (i.e. let your partner go ahead and play1NT for a likely top in Match point)

Thanks for your comment as well. I wonder if there is actual data out there or if double dummy simulations are possible to yield insight

[apollo1201]

With a (very) weak hand, you are generally better if you transfer, as your hand will be useless at NT, while in a suit contract, you can hope to score some trumps that will be used as entries to your hand to lead towards partner’s honors. So it is safer on average to transfer. Especially if vul.

Maybe, with a max of a min, scattered values in the short suits and a lousy 5-carder, transsferring to 2M might see you suffer too many trump losers in the 5-2 fit, while if you are 5-3 but still play NT, the suit could establish so you might still cash it, and at the same time your outside values will help partner control opps attacks 1 more round, and eventually make the same number of tricks.

Jxxxx
Qxx
Kx
Jxx

Passing could be a winning action facing a 15-17 opening, but probably not the field action. No idea to simulate this haha.

Jxxxx
xxx
xx
xxx

Transferring is clearly better. Unless opps save you from your nightmare (2S could be a cheap save, though, -50 or -100 vs 110/130/140 their way, that will be harder to find now).

[smerriman]

Double dummy simulations in this scenario tend to show 1N and 2M performing about the same. However, these contracts are cases where double dummy is the most unreliable since knowing the other hands gives you far too much information on how to play.

Just transfer like everyone else

[bluenikki]

 Shugart23, on 2022-March-19, 07:21, said:

So the people you are quoting seemingly fall into the camp of ALWAYS transfer.... But I don't know if they would make the same comment if strictly considering a 5332 distribution (opposite 1NT) where a part score is the best to be expected.

Thanks for the comment

The comment referred to bad responding hands.

65432
432
432
32

is not making any contract. It *may* take more tricks in notrump than in spades. But it will never take *far* more tricks in notrump. And it can take far more tricks in spades.

When you have game values, the considerations are different.

65432
KQJ
KQJ
KQ

Now it's probably right to suppress the spades. Or suggest the suit only if partner has 4.

Carl

[bluenikki]

 paulg, on 2022-March-19, 07:43, said:

This is not a decision that I worry about too much, as I always transfer unless it looks like a four-card suit (65432).

If you have the simple rule that you always transfer, then you save brain cells for more important decisions.

Especially since it is partner who has to sweat out the play.

[AL78]

 Shugart23, on 2022-March-19, 07:52, said:

Here is one thing I know (or think I know) . Playing 1NT going down 1, NV, is almost always a top in Match point, so I will hardly ever let my opponents play 1NT NV, especially if I am also NV.

I might look at the travellers at my club to find out how frequently 1NT-1 was a top, and I suspect not very often. It may be true if you play in a club full of expert players who will always compete against a 1NT opening when it is right, and silly results due to randomness are minimised. I don't think it is true in general in the very mixed ability clubs that are the norm, here a novice going one down in 1NT will be a near bottom if others are making 8 tricks in the same contract.

[mikeh]

I almost always transfer, regardless of imps or matchpoints. In fact ‘almost always’ is probably an underbid since I can’t recall ever passing 1N with a 5 card major.

While I agree with pretty much everything that’s been said here already, there’s an upside to transferring that is only partly offset by the downside:

Upside: if you transfer to 2M, and especially if you transfer to spades, you have preempted the auction to a degree. Now, most opps don’t play methods geared to competing in a minor at the 2-level so this shouldn’t be overstated: after 1N P P it’s often difficult to impossible for 4th seat to bid a minor naturally, although some play a balancing double as showing a minor. In any event, after your bid, it’s more difficult for the opps.

The downside: especially if you transfer to hearts, is the lead and suit showing double. Since it’s usually easy for 4th seat to balance with a major, this is less of a problem when you bid 2H…if he’s doubling, he was often balancing had you passed.

The main reason for transferring is to improve the contract…whether because you’ll score more for making or because you’ll go down fewer (or on a happy day turn a minus in 1N into a plus) is irrelevant.

Bear in mind that this is a different situation than say 1m P 1M P 1N P, when the issue is still pass or get to 2M. On the 1N P auction, opener will hold 2-4 card support (rarely 5 but perhaps recently sometimes 1) but on the 1m 1M auction, never as many as 4 and (in some partnerships) a bit more often just 1.

[AL78]

 mikeh, on 2022-March-20, 06:26, said:

I almost always transfer, regardless of imps or matchpoints. In fact ‘almost always’ is probably an underbid since I can’t recall ever passing 1N with a 5 card major.

While I agree with pretty much everything that’s been said here already, there’s an upside to transferring that is only partly offset by the downside:

Upside: if you transfer to 2M, and especially if you transfer to spades, you have preempted the auction to a degree. Now, most opps don’t play methods geared to competing in a minor at the 2-level so this shouldn’t be overstated: after 1N P P it’s often difficult to impossible for 4th seat to bid a minor naturally, although some play a balancing double as showing a minor. In any event, after your bid, it’s more difficult for the opps.

The downside: especially if you transfer to hearts, is the lead and suit showing double. Since it’s usually easy for 4th seat to balance with a major, this is less of a problem when you bid 2H…if he’s doubling, he was often balancing had you passed.

The main reason for transferring is to improve the contract…whether because you’ll score more for making or because you’ll go down fewer (or on a happy day turn a minus in 1N into a plus) is irrelevant.

Bear in mind that this is a different situation than say 1m P 1M P 1N P, when the issue is still pass or get to 2M. On the 1N P auction, opener will hold 2-4 card support (rarely 5 but perhaps recently sometimes 1) but on the 1m 1M auction, never as many as 4 and (in some partnerships) a bit more often just 1.

The other downside of transferring is that you give opponents more options to bid. After 1NT - (P) - 2♥, LHO can cue 2♠ to show a TOX hand short in spades, and have pass followed by double as penalties. Similarly RHO can TOX after the transfer is completed with short spades and strength.

One of the very strong players at my club disliked weak takeouts after a penalty double of 1NT for that reason, it gives the opponents more options.

[Shugart23]

 apollo1201, on 2022-March-19, 11:45, said:

With a (very) weak hand, you are generally better if you transfer, as your hand will be useless at NT, while in a suit contract, you can hope to score some trumps that will be used as entries to your hand to lead towards partner’s honors. So it is safer on average to transfer. Especially if vul.

Maybe, with a max of a min, scattered values in the short suits and a lousy 5-carder, transsferring to 2M might see you suffer too many trump losers in the 5-2 fit, while if you are 5-3 but still play NT, the suit could establish so you might still cash it, and at the same time your outside values will help partner control opps attacks 1 more round, and eventually make the same number of tricks.

Jxxxx
Qxx
Kx
Jxx

Passing could be a winning action facing a 15-17 opening, but probably not the field action. No idea to simulate this haha.

Jxxxx
xxx
xx
xxx

Transferring is clearly better. Unless opps save you from your nightmare (2S could be a cheap save, though, -50 or -100 vs 110/130/140 their way, that will be harder to find now).

I think Apollo has it about right. With a 5332 distribution and a crappy hand, you are likely going to be better off with the transfer as at least you may get a trump trick or two. As the strength of your hand improves, I think the 1 NT contract becomes more and more the preferred place to Play ( all assuming the only decision is to Pass or transfer first then pass). I think I will reject the 'Always transfer' or 'Always Pass' in future situations

[pescetom]

 AL78, on 2022-March-20, 06:48, said:

The other downside of transferring is that you give opponents more options to bid. After 1NT - (P) - 2♥, LHO can cue 2♠ to show a TOX hand short in spades, and have pass followed by double as penalties. Similarly RHO can TOX after the transfer is completed with short spades and strength.

One of the very strong players at my club disliked weak takeouts after a penalty double of 1NT for that reason, it gives the opponents more options.

I suspect that is more a weak NT thing however. Not sure those penalties would work against my 14-17 and even less against our LOL playing 16-18.

[AL78]

 pescetom, on 2022-March-20, 16:59, said:

I suspect that is more a weak NT thing however. Not sure those penalties would work against my 14-17 and even less against our LOL playing 16-18.

Yes, I live in weak NT land, and I picked up that possible method of interfering over a transfer from one of my bridge books.

[DavidKok]

Declining to transfer with a 5332 with some values is certainly more sophisticated than "always transfer", but I am not convinced it is better.

[Gilithin]

 AL78, on 2022-March-20, 06:48, said:

The other downside of transferring is that you give opponents more options to bid. After 1NT - (P) - 2♥, LHO can cue 2♠ to show a TOX hand short in spades, and have pass followed by double as penalties. Similarly RHO can TOX after the transfer is completed with short spades and strength.

While this is a popular (and decent) defence to transfers it is by no means the only one. Very popular internationally, particularly in North America, is to play the immediate cue as Michaels. Even if a pair do choose to play the cue as takeout, it is more common for the delayed Double to be a weaker (shape) takeout rather than penalty. You also get after transfers 2 different levels of 3X overcall (constructive/competitive) and 2 different 2NT calls (nat/minors) and most importantly the immediate Double, which in the cue takeout method is usually an overcall in the suit bid, and in the Michaels method is usually takeout of their major. In other words, transfers end up giving both sides more bidding space. In general that tends to be favourable for the side bidding constructively.

[Shugart23]

 DavidKok, on 2022-March-21, 05:24, said:

Declining to transfer with a 5332 with some values is certainly more sophisticated than "always transfer", but I am not convinced it is better.

I am not convinced either but lean toward it being true...Lert's look at the two extremes of 5332 hands...at one extreme we have a zero-point hand; we all agree we are better off transferring so that maybe dummy's hand can get 1 or possibly two tricks.

Now suppose you have a maximum hand where you know combined partnership strength is, say 22-23 HCP. Transferring will only beat Passing strategy if you can take more tricks in the suit contract vs the NT contract most of the time. If you would take the same number of tricks, Passing and playing in NT was the better option. Is the probability 2S will take more tricks than 1NT greater than 50% when on a fair percentage of the hands, you will have 6 Spades out against you?

With both hands being balanced, my gut feeling is I want to be in NT and get a 120 vs 110 or 90 vs -50. True, there will be instances where it will be 90 vs 110, but I'm thinking with the HCP, and balanced distribution, NT is the better contract when 5332 and good HCP

Just an opinion, though it makes sense to me

[mycroft]

What's interesting is that, even in those 22-23 ranges, when it doesn't work, it's frequently not 90 vs -50, but -100 vs -50. It's frequently not 90 vs 110, it's -100 vs 110.

Because sure, "an 8-card fit more often than not takes one trick more in the suit than in NT", but also "that extra trick is frequently 'long trumps are extra stoppers in the opponents' suit'." So when NT is right (which, I agree, is a lot of the time), it scores the same tricks as the suit, and you win. When it's okay, suit plays one trick better, and you lose to the transferers. When it's bad, you lose 3 or 4 tricks instead of one, and you lose even to the people who play worse than you would have in the suit.

And the pressure you put on yourself "having to play 2NT because you need to beat the field's 2M" frequently leads to "120 or -50" plays, only to find that a bunch of "the field" is in 3♦-1 the other way and you lost that matchpoint as well.

Yes, I'm speaking from experience here - although my experience is mostly in 4-4 fits rather than 5-3s (weak NT-AP vs 1m-1M; 2M).

[Shugart23]

Because sure, "an 8-card fit more often than not takes one trick more in the suit than in NT",
[/quote]

You may be 100% right about this, but I don't know if the statement is true when you have a balanced hand (5332) playing with partner's balanced hand (4432,4333,5332). There will be a non-trivial percentage of hands where the Major fit is 5-2 and not 5-3 and, with both hands being balanced, there will be hands where trumps don't have much impact. For those hands where you hold 5-4 or 5-3 in the Major, it seems that if you can set the suit up to run the Spades (or Hearts), it seems the suit would also run in the NT contract.

If Opener has a 5332 hand playing with your 5332 hand, as long as the doubletons are in different suits, in this instance, playing 2 of the Major seems to have a clear advantage over 1NT. I'm not so sure the same can be said for 5332 playing with 4333 or 4432; with 23 HCP, I'm still thinking I may want to be in NT.

Having said that, I cant really argue with your opinion, as I have no statistics. My experience is that when I open 1NT with 5332 hands and the opponents let me play it, especially non-vulnerable - I am more than happy to take my top (most of the time) in Match point. I'd love to see some real analysis or data