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What does this show ?

#1 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-22, 14:15

1N-P-2(Stayman)-P
2-P-P-2N

Your agreements.

Double of 2 would simply show clubs, one 2 or 3 suited.
2N over 2 would show a 2 suiter without clubs

Obviously you can also bid suits naturally
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#2 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2022-May-22, 14:26

If they were playing a weak no trump then I suppose this is how you show a very strong balanced hand. Not my methods but hard to think of anything else that makes sense.

I can't see this happening if it were a strong no trump and I don't have any agreements. I guess it probably shows a desire to go negative.
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#3 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-May-22, 14:31

I’ve never seen this auction, and it really doesn’t make much sense to me.

I’m assuming a strong 1N: I have different agreements over the 2C bid if it were a weak notrump.

rHO presumably has something resembling 4441. LHO has no major. Why on earth would we be bidding here? What kind of hand thinks that a likely misfit layout belongs to us at the 3-level?

I briefly considered ‘natural’, something along the lines of about 19-20 hcp with 5+ clubs, but I still can’t bring myself to enter the auction. No doubt I’ll learn something when we are told what the 2N bidder held.

Added: the form of scoring may be relevant. I’d be more likely to bid 2N with my suggested 19-20 with clubs if playing matchpoints.

Edit: if 1N were weak, I’d never play double of 2C as anything other than ‘cards’. Using it to show clubs is, imo, inefficient.
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#4 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-May-22, 15:10

I'd guess at 5 with opening values, not willing to bid initially when the point count may be unfavourable.
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#5 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-22, 15:25

 mikeh, on 2022-May-22, 14:31, said:

I’ve never seen this auction, and it really doesn’t make much sense to me.

I’m assuming a strong 1N: I have different agreements over the 2C bid if it were a weak notrump.

rHO presumably has something resembling 4441. LHO has no major. Why on earth would we be bidding here? What kind of hand thinks that a likely misfit layout belongs to us at the 3-level?

I briefly considered ‘natural’, something along the lines of about 19-20 hcp with 5+ clubs, but I still can’t bring myself to enter the auction. No doubt I’ll learn something when we are told what the 2N bidder held.

Added: the form of scoring may be relevant. I’d be more likely to bid 2N with my suggested 19-20 with clubs if playing matchpoints.

Edit: if 1N were weak, I’d never play double of 2C as anything other than ‘cards’. Using it to show clubs is, imo, inefficient.


Weak no trump
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#6 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-22, 15:26

 mw64ahw, on 2022-May-22, 15:10, said:

I'd guess at 5 with opening values, not willing to bid initially when the point count may be unfavourable.


That hand would double 2
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#7 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-22, 15:27

 paulg, on 2022-May-22, 14:26, said:

If they were playing a weak no trump then I suppose this is how you show a very strong balanced hand. Not my methods but hard to think of anything else that makes sense.


If hypothetically this was how you were thinking, how strong does it need to be ?
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#8 User is online   mikeh 

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Posted 2022-May-22, 15:48

 Cyberyeti, on 2022-May-22, 15:27, said:

If hypothetically this was how you were thinking, how strong does it need to be ?

If forced to fill in for a player who took ill and forced to play partner’s methods, and this was a weak notrump, then I suppose I have a strong 2N bid. But I’d never willingly play these methods. Double of 2C as basically a strong notrump (or better) is imo (and those of every really good pair against whom I’ve played where it came up…I have played a lot of weak 1N) far more useful than ‘I have clubs’. When one has clubs, that slightly increases the already likely odds that opener has a major and we’re likely outgunned in terms of buying the contract, and the lead value is diminished against a suit contract rather than notrump.
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#9 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 00:15

 mikeh, on 2022-May-22, 15:48, said:

If forced to fill in for a player who took ill and forced to play partner’s methods, and this was a weak notrump, then I suppose I have a strong 2N bid. But I’d never willingly play these methods. Double of 2C as basically a strong notrump (or better) is imo (and those of every really good pair against whom I’ve played where it came up…I have played a lot of weak 1N) far more useful than ‘I have clubs’. When one has clubs, that slightly increases the already likely odds that opener has a major and we’re likely outgunned in terms of buying the contract, and the lead value is diminished against a suit contract rather than notrump.


In club bridge, the strong NT+ is surprisingly uncommon here.

The issue is that you look at your 12-13 with 5 clubs and have to stick your neck out at the 3 level in an opps auction of 1N-2-2 passed round to you into a potential 24 count for the opps or pass out where you can make 3N opposite partner's flat 13. Instead you can just double and let partner take it from there.

It's swings and roundabouts and I don't know what's more frequent and/or useful.
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#10 User is offline   nullve 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 00:48

 Cyberyeti, on 2022-May-22, 15:26, said:

That hand would double 2

Then you risk losing a 5-3 heart fit after e.g.

(1N)-P-(2)-X
(2)-3-(P),

don't you?

.
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#11 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 00:53

 Cyberyeti, on 2022-May-22, 15:26, said:

That hand would double 2

Correcting after the agreement was forgotten?Posted Image
What 1NT overcall structure is being played?
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#12 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 01:23

 Cyberyeti, on 2022-May-22, 15:27, said:

If hypothetically this was how you were thinking, how strong does it need to be ?

I would expect it to be similar to a balancing 2NT after one of a suit was opened, so 19-21. I've obviously given up on sensible methods :)
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#13 User is offline   paulg 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 01:29

 Cyberyeti, on 2022-May-23, 00:15, said:

In club bridge, the strong NT+ is surprisingly uncommon here.

The issue is that you look at your 12-13 with 5 clubs and have to stick your neck out at the 3 level in an opps auction of 1N-2-2 passed round to you into a potential 24 count for the opps or pass out where you can make 3N opposite partner's flat 13. Instead you can just double and let partner take it from there.

It's swings and roundabouts and I don't know what's more frequent and/or useful.

Club players do not play fourth seat doubles of a weak no trump as strong because they have no idea what subsequent doubles mean or how to handle such auctions: this is why a double shows the suit.

Weak no trumpers always remember the games you miss when they hold two balanced hands and let you play one no trump down a few: they don't remember the larger penalties when they double Stayman because it only happens in a stronger field.
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#14 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 01:30

 nullve, on 2022-May-23, 00:48, said:

Then you risk losing a 5-3 heart fit after e.g.

(1N)-P-(2)-X
(2)-3-(P),

don't you?

.


You do if not strong enough to bid 3 and if your heart suit is not chunky enough to bid 2 first time, but 3 may still be better than defending
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#15 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 01:33

 mw64ahw, on 2022-May-23, 00:53, said:

Correcting after the agreement was forgotten?Posted Image
What 1NT overcall structure is being played?


asptro, natural major suit overcalls, penalty doubles, so basically all 5-4s (except both minors which will be 5-5) and single suited majors.
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#16 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 02:22

I couldn't find a way to show a strong hand on the first round, so I guess that 2NT shows that. I agree with mikeh that this is a serious system flaw, and it is not at all clear to me that entering the auction on the second round (and taking away the option to defend some doubled contract at the same time!) is a good move, almost regardless of the hand.

I'd like to add that my partner requested that a double of their Stayman shows points, not clubs, even over their strong notrump. As mikeh said, clubs just don't win the auction.
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#17 User is offline   Cyberyeti 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 02:44

 DavidKok, on 2022-May-23, 02:22, said:

I couldn't find a way to show a strong hand on the first round, so I guess that 2NT shows that. I agree with mikeh that this is a serious system flaw, and it is not at all clear to me that entering the auction on the second round (and taking away the option to defend some doubled contract at the same time!) is a good move, almost regardless of the hand.

I'd like to add that my partner requested that a double of their Stayman shows points, not clubs, even over their strong notrump. As mikeh said, clubs just don't win the auction.


In second seat, you make a penalty double, this is only an issue in 4th seat. Partner said he would have doubled 2 anyway (I was big and balanced with Axxx with x being very small)
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#18 User is offline   AL78 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 04:30

 DavidKok, on 2022-May-23, 02:22, said:

I couldn't find a way to show a strong hand on the first round, so I guess that 2NT shows that. I agree with mikeh that this is a serious system flaw, and it is not at all clear to me that entering the auction on the second round (and taking away the option to defend some doubled contract at the same time!) is a good move, almost regardless of the hand.

I'd like to add that my partner requested that a double of their Stayman shows points, not clubs, even over their strong notrump. As mikeh said, clubs just don't win the auction.


I thought it was more about lead directing than winning the auction.
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#19 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 05:44

 AL78, on 2022-May-23, 04:30, said:

I thought it was more about lead directing than winning the auction.
To me this is a matter of probabilities and expected IMPs. If they had opened 2NT and bid 3, a lead-directing double against their likely 3NT or 4M is probably the best use of the double (and this is the way I play it). It does not suggest strength or willingness to play 4 or 5, because those are very uncommon over a strong 2NT.
Over (1NT)-P-(2*)-? on the other hand, the hand might belong to either side, competing at the 3-level (or even the 2-level over their possible diamond or heart fit) is a live possibility. Double partscore swings do add up at 6 IMPs at a time. Also lead-directing doubles are always a parlay bet of sorts - the lead has to set their contract, the lead partner would naturally have made has to not set their contract, and the opponents have to be foolhardy enough to bid on anyway before you show a good profit. Of course you also profit if a lead-directing double keeps them out of a game (especially if it would have made), but not only is this rare, my partner tends to find the killing leads on these auctions even without the double. So the average IMPs (or matchpoints, for that matter) swung with lead-directing doubles is low. I think assigning a different meaning to doubles in many situations like this is helpful.

In fact, the case is even stronger than I presented above. As mikeh pointed out if we have a hand suitable for clubs the chance is greater that the opponents belong in a suit contract and that our clubs won't take that many tricks. The double gives the opponents extra bidding space to explore this (I play: a bid by opener shows a club stopper and the meaning as if we were not interrupted, redouble is for blood and pass denies a club stopper, responder can repeat the Stayman ask with a redouble). Both of these are much less of a concern if double shows values/cards, and doubler's partner is likely to pull it.
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#20 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2022-May-23, 05:44

 Cyberyeti, on 2022-May-23, 02:44, said:

In second seat, you make a penalty double, this is only an issue in 4th seat. Partner said he would have doubled 2 anyway (I was big and balanced with Axxx with x being very small)
And was 2NT the par? Or did partner bid on?
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