[pescetom]

As a Director in f2f tournaments with Mitchell movement and an odd number of pairs, I have always placed the phantom pair in EW so that NS sit out. I am continuously under pressure from my club to alternate this so that half the times EW sit out instead. Could Directors with experience of this (or who have given it much thought) please comment on whether this is acceptable and if not what the problems are? I remember some previous (negative) comments on this, but I really would like to have a focussed discussion that exposes all the issues.

Our tourmaments are mainly 6-10 tables with Mitchell or Skip Mitchell (Relay and Byestand is not common here, although now we have a duplicating machine I guess it would be feasible to deal double boards and play that instead of Skip Mitchell). The players are like any players I guess: the better pairs all want NS and two players (not partners) need to be stationary for disability reasons, all hate sit outs and in particular the players with disability who feel unfairly burdened.

[I realise this is not a Laws and Rulings matter, if there is any better place where f2f Directors will still see it then please move]

[axman]

pescetom, on 2022-August-24, 10:10, said:

As a Director in f2f tournaments with Mitchell movement and an odd number of pairs, I have always placed the phantom pair in EW so that NS sit out. I am continuously under pressure from my club to alternate this so that half the times EW sit out instead. Could Directors with experience of this (or who have given it much thought) please comment on whether this is acceptable and if not what the problems are? I remember some previous (negative) comments on this, but I really would like to have a focussed discussion that exposes all the issues.

Our tourmaments are mainly 6-10 tables with Mitchell or Skip Mitchell (Relay and Byestand is not common here, although now we have a duplicating machine I guess it would be feasible to deal double boards and play that instead of Skip Mitchell). The players are like any players I guess: the better pairs all want NS and two players (not partners) need to be stationary for disability reasons, all hate sit outs and in particular the players with disability who feel unfairly burdened.

[I realise this is not a Laws and Rulings matter, if there is any better place where f2f Directors will still see it then please move]

How come there is no rent-a-solomon?

First a little accounting. In terms of psychology it appears there are two prizes: stationary tables and play every round. Apparently the same players (excluding health accommodations) mostly lay claim to the stationary tables. This would give a prize always to those players. When there is a sitout if say it alternates between N and E then those stationeries will get an additional prize half the time there is a sitout and EW during those times get no prize at all.

My sense of balance suggests that all other things being equal that NS designated sitout is most equitable. But what about when all other things are not equal? As when an election votes for a different solution? What I would do is to review the reasoning for my conclusion and suggest everyone talk about it for a week and then take the vote with full knowledge of what is important.

As for 'in particular the players with disability who feel unfairly burdened.' I have an alternate view. The attitude expressed suggests those with disabilities are entitled to burden (even heavily burden) others so as to achieve their own maximum pleasure. But to me if a player needs a card holder or special light fixture to function it seems out of whack should they feel entitled to torment others with their difficulty controlling the pasteboards or figuring out the spots when such facilities are not provided. Getting along sometimes involves some give and take.

[mycroft]

I think I have answered this before, but yes, I always have a N-S sitout unless it is to my advantage not to (the prime example being a share and relay 12, where making N-S 1 the phantom kills the 2-board relay with only one set of boards). As axman said, the people who always want to stay stationary also always want to miss the sitout. These players (note the term "want" here) are called entitled, and I have little sympathy for them. In fact, I suggest to them (as well as those who complain that the N-S field is so much harder than the E-W field, and and and...) that if they don't want a sitout (want an easier field to score against,...), they can choose to sit E-W next time. Frequently that gets me a "how dare you even suggest that the world doesn't revolve around me" glare as a response, and I shrug and go on to the next problem. Of course, sometimes they take me up on my suggestion!

Now yes, there are those that *need*, rather than *want*, stationaries. Those I try to work around; in a 16.5 table game I'll figure out how to minimize the number of "need"ers that sit out, praying to the RNG that it works out over time. I also try to entice some people with the last sitout; that usually improves their mood. However, frequently (by no means always) the "need" N-S are also slow (whether in general, or for the same reasons they need the stationaries, or their cards sorted, or...); at which point a sitout is an advantage, at least for the director and for the game.

What I will never do is have N-S at the highest table be the phantom. That way lies madness.

The correct answer, of course, is a paid director that has people on speed-dial that they can call two minutes from gametime to fill in the hole with. "But it will take 15 minutes to get there". Great, gives me the first round to get everything settled and into the computer. Like all the other answers above, however, it has its issues (the paid part, the "why would I direct when I could play" part, ...)

Oh, and if you can get the phantom "behind" the slow pair/slow groups, so the sitout catches up the pairs that are getting behind...

[mycroft]

Those were general comments, but I guess I should answer your specifics. [Edit 2024: a couple of typos and a "I forgot".]

6.5: just sucks. Best is to run the 7-table Howell (if 24 boards is sufficient, you get two stationaries. If 13 rounds required, it's possible to have two stationaries, but it takes some skill on the director's part and some attention on the "moving" stationary pair's part.) The ACBL has a silly "double-bump" movement for 6.5 tables, but it's really silly (less so with an arrow switch, but only less so). Your worst option is the 7 table Mitchell with the 4-board sitout.

7.5: is almost worse. Most clubs don't have the 8-table Howell cards, so you're using guide cards or printing your own. Good news if you do go down that route: you get more stationaries. If you're a little mean, you can make one of them the phantom, and just put a card on that table that says "you're out this round". Bad news, all the stationaries but one have some arrow switches, which don't match and if someone forgets, it's somewhere between a problem and a real problem depending on when they notice and tell you about it. 5 hours later, sitting at dinner watching the football game, is not the best time for you to find out. Ask me why I know.

Another option is the 8-table share-and-relay. But it's 24 boards, which means the pairs sitting out play 21. But you get 7 stationaries if you pull the trick above and have N-S 1 (not 8!) be the phantom, killing the share. But a 3-board share is much easier than a 2-board, so as long as you find two fast pairs that know what they're doing, you can keep the E-W stationary sitout.

The ACBL's double-bump for 7.5 tables is actually much less silly than the 6.5 (and close to fair if you arrow switch). I usually run this one if 28 is allowed.

Another option is the EBU's hesitation Mitchell - 8 tables, 9 rounds, 27 boards, with players going E-W 8-> N-S 8 -> E-W 1. There's a share in this one as well, but if you make the phantom N-S 1, bye-bye share. It's a 3-board sitout, but you can kibitz table 8 while you're sitting out at 1 (as those are the boards you're sitting out).

The 8x7 web would work, of course; with two sets of boards. But again it's a 4-board sitout. 8x7 with 32 boards out is the worst of your options.

8.5: The 9x3 is pretty much your only sane option - yes, everybody N-S gets a sitout, and it's 3 boards, but oh well. You could run the 9-table Howell - see the 8 table Howell, and add two "pivoting" stationaries.

9.5 10 table Web probably works best for 27 boards; if you want 24, nothing's really nice (30 boards in play, and you get 21/24 of them?) (see below for better answer).

"All the strong pairs want to be N/S, and complain when they also have to sit out". Yeah, makes sense. Push to get some of them E-W, especially if you do expect a sitout - claim it's "balancing the field" (which it is), but also offering the lure of "you'll be playing all rounds even if another pair doesn't show up at the last minute". Plus it becomes less of a bunny-bashing contest.

Bonus for the movement weirdos: I was reminded by reading that 10.5 makes a great 1 1/2 table Appendix Mitchell - 1 and 10 share, E-W go from 10 to 11 (sitout) to 1. 27 boards in play. Violates the "N-S at highest table sitout" rule, but you don't have an issue, because "1 & 10" boards go to 9 (there's never any boards on 11), and one of N-S 1 or 10 will let the E-W know they're sitting out. Note: this is identical to the "11-table web with N-S 11 phantom".

This post has been edited by mycroft: 2024-August-22, 22:43

[pescetom]

Thanks for all of this: will digest and get back!

Just to be clear, I have already got the NS clingers used to my balancing the lines so that they don't always get that preferred position. It's one of the disability players that is doing the moaning and unfortunately he convinced the club president that the best solution is to alternate the line that sits out.

So I'm looking for solid arguments why phantom in NS is madness (I can see some, but I bet I'm missing others).

[mycroft]

There are also some appendix movements with stationary E-W that you could look into. Normally, this is only done when entire tables show up late, but you can plan on it especially when doing 7x4 and 8 tables, and the like.

Or you can have a "stationary" E-W that starts off against the other "need" N-S, and then moves to their table where the other N-S come to them in order.

Again, if (at least one of) the two disabled pairs are a stronger pair, you can argue it's "line balancing" to get people used to the idea.

But I think (assuming 24 boards is okay sometimes) that if you ran:

• the 6x9 Howell with one of the pivot stationaries as the phantom for 5.5, (yz)
  
• the 7x12 Howell for 6.5, (xz)
  
• the Hesitation Mitchell (with N-S 1 phantom) for 27, the no-share-and-relay 8x3 for 24, or the ACBL double-bump with arrow-switch for 7.5, (y)
  
• the 9x3 with an E-W phantom for 8.5, (x)
  
• the 10-table Web (again E-W phantom) for 9.5, (or the 30 board if you can only have one boardset) (x)
  
• the 1 1/2 Appendix (N-S phantom) for 10.5 (there's a 3-board share here you can't avoid without 2 sets), (y)
  
• and the 12x2 no-share-and-relay for 11.5 (really want two boardsets for this one if it fills, though), (y)

*consistently*, the complainers get what they want and you can legitimately argue that "People prefer to sit N-S, so there's a small benefit for the moving pairs to compensate; N-S sits out unless it's better for the movement" (especially for the Lords of the Table who complain).

(x): stationaries sit out
(y): stationaries play all
(z): only two stationaries. This is by design.

[mycroft]

Frankly, N-S phantom isn't madness (except for phantom N-S last table, when boards have to sit). As we're all saying, making the sitout N-S is just one of those things we do to make "wanna N-S" have a downside. Because we all know that if we didn't do these little things, we'd be in the classic joke position of "Well, if nobody wants to swap to E-W, I'll run the game as it is. But there will be a *lot* of sitouts". I've never had to use that line; but I have had 10 N-S and 6 E-W and *lots* of grumbling...

Absolutely, if it *always* hits the players who are "have to stationary" rather than "don't wanna move", then it's overdoing its job and "punishing" people who don't have a choice. So, sure.

I have a benefit (or had, before The Fall) where most of my games were either all-play-"all" Howells or 18-20 table games where I could massage who got a sitout somewhat. Your 6-10 table issue is in the middle world where "all N-S, but not 'all' players" get a sitout - where it is an issue for the disabled pairs. I kind of agree with your club committee on this one, even if I might go with 2/1 rather than 1/1. Because of who I am, though, I'd first play the "best movement" game (while still ensuring that some of the best movements are, in fact, E-W sitouts).

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2022-August-25, 10:50, said:

Frankly, N-S phantom isn't madness (except for phantom N-S last table, when boards have to sit). As we're all saying, making the sitout N-S is just one of those things we do to make "wanna N-S" have a downside. Because we all know that if we didn't do these little things, we'd be in the classic joke position of "Well, if nobody wants to swap to E-W, I'll run the game as it is. But there will be a *lot* of sitouts". I've never had to use that line; but I have had 10 N-S and 6 E-W and *lots* of grumbling...

Absolutely, if it *always* hits the players who are "have to stationary" rather than "don't wanna move", then it's overdoing its job and "punishing" people who don't have a choice. So, sure.

I have a benefit (or had, before The Fall) where most of my games were either all-play-"all" Howells or 18-20 table games where I could massage who got a sitout somewhat. Your 6-10 table issue is in the middle world where "all N-S, but not 'all' players" get a sitout - where it is an issue for the disabled pairs. I kind of agree with your club committee on this one, even if I might go with 2/1 rather than 1/1. Because of who I am, though, I'd first play the "best movement" game (while still ensuring that some of the best movements are, in fact, E-W sitouts).

Yes the last table scenario is clearly madness, but even at higher tables N-S phantom worries me a bit. When every table has a stationary NS then they feel responsible for the table and the boards / travellers and also tend to know the sequence of boards and opponents (for good reasons I hope). In any case they can usually figure out correctly whether EW are just late or a phantom: at worst they might accept the wrong boards, or open the travellers to sign bye just before EW turn up, but these are easily handled. With NS a phantom then things look less predictable. I guess a big red sign "BYE" on the table would help. Hopefully I can transition the club to electronic scoring before the end of this year and then any risks should be much reduced.

Before Spring I had a benefit that we were kind of stuck on 6 tables playing Skip Mitchell, which meant I could massage to avoid a sitout for the always present player with the clearest disability (he is blind). Since then we acquired a dealing machine which makes it practical to play Howell, but we also seem to alternate 7 and 9 tables.

Thanks for all your very useful advice here, I'll study the options and see what people are happy with.

[mycroft]

Sorry for the necro, but I was reminded in Puerto Vallarta that there are even-table 24-board webs[*] available (with a skip). So you can do the 10x8, 24-board web for 9.5 (with a 3 board sitout. Also, needs two sets of boards).

[*]Tim's "complete webs" document in fact has two types of 24-board webs, one that looks like the "even web" (set 1 goes up in first half, set 2 goes down in second half) and one that looks like the "odd web" (set 1 goes 1-24, then the rest of the movement is an "even web". So, for 10x8, first 8 tables share the first set of boards, and the last two play a "two-table web" like the 11x9.) I can't see why one would ever want to run the "odd web" style though, except if I changed my mind after the boards were already out...)

[pescetom]

Useful necro.

I did manage to transition to electronic scoring (although with some phone worries that merit a separate discussion).
I had hoped that would make N-S phantom less of an issue, but oddly enough they seem to rely on the scoring app for everything except position and movement information, although I guess that will change in time (the app could also become more proactive, as in "go to table 5 EW").

The dealing machine is here to stay too, although it's still a mixed blessing with our current braille embossed cards, which require a lot of patience from both machine and operator. If anyone knows of a reasonably priced source for 30 packs of braille embossed cards that are known to work well with a machine, then please let me know.

[mycroft]

oh, ouch. Yeah, braille cards would be anathema to any dealer (and vice versa). Frankly, I'd almost do the old "first round, play and duplicate" thing for that one (which works better if you can convince someone to sort the decks after the game).

[helene_t]

If the problem is that people can game the system by choosing to sit EW to avoid sitting out, you could chose randomly between NS moves and EW moves.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2023-January-03, 18:00, said:

oh, ouch. Yeah, braille cards would be anathema to any dealer (and vice versa).

It varies enormously depending on the quality of the card and the embossing. If you take cheap paper cards and manually emboss them, the machine has all sorts of problems because the embossing is thick and the cards tend to curve (it's already difficult to manually shuffle such a deck, or even make it sit straight. Luckily things improve a bit as the embossing wears down over time). But I have one pack of plastic cards that were embossed in the factory and they deal almost like normal cards. Unfortunately they were produced by a small company in Naples that has now ceased trading. There are alternatives for sale in internet, but at prohibitive prices (at least per single pack) and I have no certainly they will work well. It would be great if someone could say "we bought these from there and they deal just fine".

[pescetom]

helene_t, on 2023-January-03, 18:26, said:

If the problem is that people can game the system by choosing to sit EW to avoid sitting out, you could chose randomly between NS moves and EW moves.

If you read back to 25 August you will see the problem (tricky to link from phone).

[helene_t]

pescetom, on 2023-January-04, 04:19, said:

If you read back to 25 August you will see the problem (tricky to link from phone).

Ah right, you could make tables with a disabled player permanently arrow-switched then But OK now I am not so serious.

[mycroft]

Yeah, if the problem was that people in general were avoiding the stationaries for any reason (frankly, including "moving pairs never sit out"), directors across the world would host a party. With streamers. And alcohol. Lots and lots of alcohol. (what? They're directors.)

And a pony.

I've had one or two sessions in my life where I was looking to seat N/S because too many pairs wanted E/W - okay, ignoring the 299er games where none of the lowest strat want to "use the machines". But even there, all the upper strat look at all the N/S entries I have on my board and wonder why they can't get one of them...

The problem is that there are a number of Lords Of The Table who want to be in control of everything, so they Must Sit North, and strew their bags everywhere (I've mentioned before that a majority, but by no means all, of LooTs are LadiesooT before). One of said control issues is "how dare you make us sit out? We sat out last week, too!" But heaven help you if you suggest there is a solution to that problem...at least not one that doesn't involve *other pairs* being inconvenienced instead.

But then, there are those who yes, need a stationary. Who do in fact get caught in the crossfire, and it is in fact not fair to them. Now, some of them are *also* LooTs (but by no means all!)...

[mycroft]

Personal story time (as in, nobody gets it right every time. Mea Culpa):

Yesterday I had a very nice set up; 9 full, if I (director and spare) played with the single we had left. It even balanced the lines nicely. "Go to 9 North, I'm your partner today, I'll be there shortly." Then at game-time +/- 45 seconds, a pair comes in from the restaurant next door, where they'd been discussing their card.

They said they'd take the first round sitout - and I let them.

10 table, 9 round web, E-W 10 phantom, as I recommend above. Make enough boards of a second set to start the web, and go.

I'm sure people are starting to clue in to the dénoument...

About round 3, I realize:

• I could have taken the first round sitout and finished off the boards, finished setting up the game, and not distracted my table by running off when dummy/playing quickly/...
  
• not only that, I could have taken the last round sitout, and done the end-of-game stuff without worrying about time.
  
• but that's not a problem, because the last round is against the fastest pair in the room.
  
• which means that I've put the sitout *before* the two slow pairs, not after them, so every N/S that sits out then starts the next round 3-5 minutes behind...
  
• oh, by the way, I'm the *only* N/S pair that doesn't sit out at all. Great look there.

Yes, last minute (literally) complete change. But if I had taken the extra minute to look at the room again and work out what would happen... Well, I'll remember next time, at least.

[barmar]

mycroft, on 2023-January-04, 10:16, said:

Yes, last minute (literally) complete change. But if I had taken the extra minute to look at the room again and work out what would happen... Well, I'll remember next time, at least.

Often when things change at the last minute, you feel a need to resolve in quickly, so you get sloppy and don't do the analysis to come to the best solution. Don't sweat it.

[pescetom]

barmar, on 2023-January-04, 10:36, said:

Often when things change at the last minute, you feel a need to resolve in quickly, so you get sloppy and don't do the analysis to come to the best solution. Don't sweat it.

Sometimes the best solution is to just say no, particularly if everyone knew days ago that there was a deadline three hours before start for online signup.
I might make an exception if some star from Turin turns up unexpected, not for our own players unless I'm certain I can handle it without risk or delay.
And unfortunately playing Director is not an option here.

[barmar]

pescetom, on 2023-January-04, 13:50, said:

Sometimes the best solution is to just say no, particularly if everyone knew days ago that there was a deadline three hours before start for online signup.
I might make an exception if some star from Turin turns up unexpected, not for our own players unless I'm certain I can handle it without risk or delay.
And unfortunately playing Director is not an option here.

Running a bridge club is a business, and turning away customers is not good for business. If it really messes up the movement, fine, but most of the time it's pretty easy to accomodate a pair that shows up a little late. You won't just make a few dollars that day, you'll also make them happy and they're more likely to come back.

And in mycroft's incident, it really was easy to accomodate them. His whole story was that if he'd thought it through, the late pair would actually be a benefit, since he could take the first round sitout and use that time for the necessary startup bookkeeping, rather than being late to play in the first round.