[michel444]

---

what you bid as East?
stayman Joppe pupet stayman trensfer to heart spade?
south is going to bid after you ...and will

[Cyberyeti]

I'm going to bid game with the E hand transfer to spades then bid hearts or in my own methods bid 4♦ showing 5-5M and either no interest in slam or enough to carry on

[pescetom]

With our Stayman, uncontested it would go 1NT-2♣;2♦(no 5M)-3♦(5M5M);3♠-4♠;p.

If South wants to get involved over that then he's in for trouble.

[Cyberyeti]

pescetom, on 2022-September-12, 08:42, said:

If South wants to get involved over that then he's in for trouble.

Hardly as long as he doesn't go beyond 2♣, even 3 might be OK

[michel444]

Cyberyeti, on 2022-September-12, 07:56, said:

I'm going to bid game with the E hand transfer to spades then bid hearts or in my own methods bid 4♦ showing 5-5M and either no interest in slam or enough to carry on

you bid 2 ♥ Transfer to spade?
East bid 2 spade to show 4 cards ♥ and a long minor
what next?

[LBengtsson]

Imo it is not a weak 5/5M as if partner only has 3/3M support then you have a double fit in both the ♥ and ♠ suit. If partner has 4M in either ♥ or ♠ then you have 9 card major suit fit and should be in game. Only if partner (West) turns out with minimum strong trump opening (15) and few controls then a 4M contract would be jeopardy imo.

I like the methods of both Cyberyeti and pescetom where a bid of either 3♦ or 4♦ after Stayman is some form of extended Stayman showing 5/5M and gets the strong NT hand to play the contract.

Though it would be interesting to know how the bidding went at the table? I guess (and it only a guess) 1NT - P - 2♥(transfer to ♠) - 3♣ - X (to show maximum NT hand with ♣ stopper and/or suit) - P - and then East thinks whether to leave the X in (not wise) or bid 3♥ forcing (to game imo), and then West bids 4♠, I guess.

As Cyberyeti said, South playing 3♣X contract may only go for -200 depending on the defense.

[pescetom]

LBengtsson, on 2022-September-12, 09:32, said:

Imo it is not a weak 5/5M as if partner only has 3/3M support then you have a double fit in both the ♥ and ♠ suit. If partner has 4M in either ♥ or ♠ then you have 9 card major suit fit and should be in game. Only if partner (West) turns out with minimum strong trump opening (15) and few controls then a 4M contract would be jeopardy imo.

I like the methods of both Cyberyeti and pescetom where a bid of either 3♦ or 4♦ after Stayman is some form of extended Stayman showing 5/5M and gets the strong NT hand to play the contract.

Though it would be interesting to know how the bidding went at the table? I guess (and it only a guess) 1NT - P - 2♥(transfer to ♠) - 3♣ - X (to show maximum NT hand with ♣ stopper and/or suit) - P - and then East thinks whether to leave the X in (not wise) or bid 3♥ forcing (to game imo), and then West bids 4♠, I guess.

As Cyberyeti said, South playing 3♣X contract may only go for -200 depending on the defense.

I meant that if NS risk the 5♣ sacrifice it will probably be 500/800 vs 420/450.

With our auction, we should still reach 4♠ after either X of Stayman or 3♣, although on a bad night we might not be on same page after West doubles to shop stopper and no 5M.

[mikeh]

Methods matter. The OP appears to play a home made system (based on other posts where 1C shows 8-14 and 4 hearts).

I’ve played home made systems in the past and in both of my current partnerships we play certain methods of our own invention…more in one than the other. But those gadgets are incorporated into methods similar to those played by many players…14-16 1N, 2+ 1C opening with transfer responses, multi 2D, transfers in many competitive sequences, etc.

Here’s one approach that is, I think, worth looking at: have a response to 1N that shows invitational (or invitational plus) major two suiters.

In one partnership 1N 3D is 5-5 or better in the majors with invitational values. In the other, it is invitational or better.

It works beautifully here. East definitely has game interest opposite a strong 1N but, imo, is too weak to force to game.

Thus 1N 3D….

If south bids 4C, west has a choice of good actions. Thanks to partner’s stiff queen, 4C x’d is 500, but of course west might well bid 4S, as he would if 3D were limited to invitational values and south had passed.

If south stays quiet, and 3D could be stronger, then we can choose between 4S, saying I’d accept an invite but this isn’t a super max and 4D, saying I love spades and gave a great hand. I’d choose that…responder bids 4H as a transfer to get the strong hand as declarer and then passes.

Without this or a similar bid, east is stuck. Forcing to game seems overly optimistic. Give partner say Jxx Kxx KQxx AKx and even the 3 level is unsafe. And he could have worse hands than that.

Otoh, game could be cold. So east is reduced to having to guess whether to overbid or underbid….a common problem when one has invitational values but no invitational bid available.

The solution? Change methods. Hope my suggestion helps.

[Cyberyeti]

michel444, on 2022-September-12, 08:53, said:

you bid 2 ♥ Transfer to spade?
East bid 2 spade to show 4 cards ♥ and a long minor
what next?

You need to know what double means over this, whether it's 3 spades or a heart stop or something else, but N will be crapping himself as he knows they are bidding on a horrible misfit. In fact as long as NS play a heart to the 9 if they ever get to dummy I think there are always 8 tricks in clubs, preventing this also allows 8.

[Gilithin]

This seems to be an exercise in hand evaluation and methods. First of all, the East hand should not be described as weak. Opposite a 15-17 NT, I would think most players would evaluate it as game forcing, although if West upgrades aggressively it would not be unreasonable to treat it as invitational at these colours.
If the hand is GF, the simplest way of dealing with it is just to respond 4♣. If 4♣ is still Gerber for you then the system will clearly have an alternative auction. The Standard American approach is for 2♥ followed by 3♥ to show a GF 5-5 hand. After East bids 2♥ and South chooses 2♠, X should show 3 spades. Now East could just bid 4♠ but 3♥ should still show the 5-5 hand. Either way E-W will finish in 4♠. A more European approach is to use the auction 1NT - 2♣ -- 2♦ - 3♦ to show a GF hand with both majors, You will have to tell us what South bids over 2♣. Finally, a small number of pairs play a specialised response, typically 3♦, for both majors (weak/GF) - again you will have to tell us what South does over that.
If East instead evaluates the hand as invitational, there are a similar range of methods available. SA players will transfer to hearts, then bid spades; some pairs will prefer a 2♥ followed by 3♥ sequence; and a very small number of pairs will have a specialised response, again typically 3♦, to show this precise hand type.

So a typical auction might be 1NT - P - 4C - X -- 4S - AP but there are lots of moving parts depending on the agreements in play.

[mw64ahw]

Playing a balanced only 1NT

---

[michel444]

pescetom, on 2022-September-12, 08:42, said:

With our Stayman, uncontested it would go 1NT-2♣;2♦(no 5M)-3♦(5M5M);3♠-4♠;p.

If South wants to get involved over that then he's in for trouble.

OVER 2♣ SOUTH DOUBLE ( THE DOUBLE SHOW OPENING VALUE AND SOME INTEREST IN CLUB )
south have no reason to speak after and north must stay silent (expect a pass of west ).

IMHO east bid 2♣ (Joppe) and if South stay silent and west bid 2♦
East bid a no forcing 2 ♥ showing 4-4 in the Major

West corect to 2♠
Now East can invite with 3 ♠

[pescetom]

michel444, on 2022-September-12, 11:26, said:

OVER 2♣ SOUTH DOUBLE ( THE DOUBLE SHOW OPENING VALUE AND SOME INTEREST IN CLUB )
south have no reason to speak after and north must stay silent (expect a pass of west ).

IMHO east bid 2♣ (Joppe) and if South stay silent and west bid 2♦
East bid a no forcing 2 ♥ showing 4-4 in the Major

I like that auction to deny that opener has 5M and to show responder with spades.
Or if you never open 1NT with 5M, to deny 4M and responder shows both majors weak, pass or correct.

Like others here, I don't really share your premise that East can make non-forcing or even invitational bids with this hand.
If South doubles we have no problem in my auction, East is still free to show majors 5-5.

[michel444]

pescetom, on 2022-September-12, 08:42, said:

With our Stayman, uncontested it would go 1NT-2♣;2♦(no 5M)-3♦(5M5M);3♠-4♠;p.

If South wants to get involved over that then he's in for trouble.

SOUTH just bid double on 2 ♣ and let have the benefice to know where all missing point are
michel

[michel444]

mikeh, on 2022-September-12, 09:54, said:

Methods matter. The OP appears to play a home made system (based on other posts where 1C shows 8-14 and 4 hearts).

I’ve played home made systems in the past and in both of my current partnerships we play certain methods of our own invention…more in one than the other. But those gadgets are incorporated into methods similar to those played by many players…14-16 1N, 2+ 1C opening with transfer responses, multi 2D, transfers in many competitive sequences, etc.

Here’s one approach that is, I think, worth looking at: have a response to 1N that shows invitational (or invitational plus) major two suiters.

In one partnership 1N 3D is 5-5 or better in the majors with invitational values. In the other, it is invitational or better.

It works beautifully here. East definitely has game interest opposite a strong 1N but, imo, is too weak to force to game.

Thus 1N 3D….

If south bids 4C, west has a choice of good actions. Thanks to partner’s stiff queen, 4C x’d is 500, but of course west might well bid 4S, as he would if 3D were limited to invitational values and south had passed.

If south stays quiet, and 3D could be stronger, then we can choose between 4S, saying I’d accept an invite but this isn’t a super max and 4D, saying I love spades and gave a great hand. I’d choose that…responder bids 4H as a transfer to get the strong hand as declarer and then passes.

Without this or a similar bid, east is stuck. Forcing to game seems overly optimistic. Give partner say Jxx Kxx KQxx AKx and even the 3 level is unsafe. And he could have worse hands than that.

Otoh, game could be cold. So east is reduced to having to guess whether to overbid or underbid….a common problem when one has invitational values but no invitational bid available.

The solution? Change methods. Hope my suggestion helps.

thank you! it is not a home made bridge but SPREAD you can download form the net in page 54 it sugest defense to NT in 4th chair what most system ignor . it always the worst place to defend...

[Gilithin]

michel444, on 2022-September-12, 15:08, said:

thank you! it is not a home made bridge but SPREAD you can download form the net in page 54 it sugest defense to NT in 4th chair what most system ignor . it always the worst place to defend...

Spread is a Forcing Pass system using a Weak NT opening. Clearly E-W were not playing that on this hand. The suggested 4th hand defence after a 1NT opening and transfer is for cue to be a full value takeout of their suit rather than a Raptor-like overcall in the other major.

[michel444]

Gilithin, on 2022-September-12, 16:03, said:

Spread is a Forcing Pass system using a Weak NT opening. Clearly E-W were not playing that on this hand. The suggested 4th hand defence after a 1NT opening and transfer is for cue to be a full value takeout of their suit rather than a Raptor-like overcall in the other major.

SOME POEPLE DONT READ TO THE END
Quote from the link you provide "
If they transfer to a major suit then the bid of their transfer suit shows exactly four cards in the other major and an unspecified longer minor (2NT asks for the minor suit). "
Thank you for providing the link!

[helene_t]

First you have to decide whether you will treat your hand as
- very weak, no game interest at all
- weakish, only game interest if partner has a 4-card major
- invitational opposite 3-card support
- game forcing

Then you chose the appropriate bidding strategy, which depends on your methods. The robots play
1NT-2♣
2♦-2♥*
as invitatipnal, so if you play that system the only thing you can do with a weak(ish) hand is to transfer to one of your suits, risking playing in a 5-2 fit while a 5-3 or 5-4 fit was available in the other suit.

Probably more common is to play the Stayman route as weak. If you start with Stayman you can, of course, still decide to invite (or bid game) if partner shows a 4-card major.

Either way,
1NT-2♦
2♥-2♠*
is usually played as invitational, and this is what I would do with this hand I think.

If you want to force to game, most systems use
1NT-2♥
2♠-3♥*
but there are also pairs who play this as conventional, and use Smolen for all GF hands with both majors.

[Cyberyeti]

helene_t, on 2022-September-13, 04:48, said:

First you have to decide whether you will treat your hand as
- very weak, no game interest at all
- weakish, only game interest if partner has a 4-card major
- invitational opposite 3-card support
- game forcing

Then you chose the appropriate bidding strategy, which depends on your methods. The robots play
1NT-2♣
2♦-2♥*
as invitatipnal, so if you play that system the only thing you can do with a weak(ish) hand is to transfer to one of your suits, risking playing in a 5-2 fit while a 5-3 or 5-4 fit was available in the other suit.

Probably more common is to play the Stayman route as weak. If you start with Stayman you can, of course, still decide to invite (or bid game) if partner shows a 4-card major.

Either way,
1NT-2♦
2♥-2♠*
is usually played as invitational, and this is what I would do with this hand I think.

If you want to force to game, most systems use
1NT-2♥
2♠-3♥*
but there are also pairs who play this as conventional, and use Smolen for all GF hands with both majors.

A useful agreement here if you play 1N-2♣-2♦-2♥ as weak is that partner always bids 2♠ with 3♠/2♥. The 4-3 fit in my experience doesn't play much worse than the 5-2, and where partner is 5-5 it's lots better. I play a weak no trump and sometimes you just want to get outta there with 4-4, this agreement avoids the 4-2.