[jillybean]

I have just played at the Sunset Bridge Club in Kauai. We had just 3.5 tables, a 4 board round Howell. Back home, we would be heading out for a walk, coffee and gripe during the phantom round.
Here in tiny Kauai, they have 2 laptops set up and we sat and played against bots, entered the scores in the Bridgemates.
Brilliant !

[pilowsky]

jillybean, on 2023-May-15, 17:18, said:

I have just played at the Sunset Bridge Club in Kauai. We had just 3.5 tables, a 4 board round Howell. Back home, we would be heading out for a walk, coffee and gripe during the phantom round.
Here in tiny Kauai, they have 2 laptops set up and we sat and played against bots, entered the scores in the Bridgemates.
Brilliant !

Outstanding.
Now just eliminate the pairs and have everyone at single tables vs 3 bots and it'll be even better.

[mycroft]

It has been tried frequently over the last 2 years, and yours is the first positive comment I've heard.

Now, I'm sure there are a lot of people who like it, and don't say anything, or are neutral and are willing to say that; I think it's a good idea.

But everyone who wants to "be back in the club" because they "hate playing online" complain that they "have to" play online again, and not even against people this time.

The people who think the bots are c-, or are just really bad, or they can't read them (or they can't play them) say that.

And the bots tend to score 53, 54% in the average club, which a lot of players (especially the ones from the previous) really don't like.

And even if 5 sitouts out of 6 would prefer it, the squeaky wheel...

[jillybean]

pilowsky, on 2023-May-15, 18:15, said:

Outstanding.
Now just eliminate the pairs and have everyone at single tables vs 3 bots and it'll be even better.

If I read between the sarcasm I think you may be saying this isn't real bridge? This is a similar reaction to when I was running Mentor-Mentee games for the Unit and wanted to let the mentee swap seats with the mentor so that they could be declarer. You can't do that!! C'mon, this is club bridge, not the Bermuda Bowl and you are handing out bucket loads of Master Points in online games with Robots a heaven knows what else is going on. What is the problem?

mycroft, on 2023-May-16, 09:00, said:

It has been tried frequently over the last 2 years, and yours is the first positive comment I've heard.

Now, I'm sure there are a lot of people who like it, and don't say anything, or are neutral and are willing to say that; I think it's a good idea.

But everyone who wants to "be back in the club" because they "hate playing online" complain that they "have to" play online again, and not even against people this time.

The people who think the bots are c-, or are just really bad, or they can't read them (or they can't play them) say that.

And the bots tend to score 53, 54% in the average club, which a lot of players (especially the ones from the previous) really don't like.

And even if 5 sitouts out of 6 would prefer it, the squeaky wheel...

Why make those who don't like it play the hands? It is a great option for those who want to play the hands.

The players at the club were very pleased when the BOTs only scored 51% yesterday.

[pescetom]

mycroft, on 2023-May-16, 09:00, said:

It has been tried frequently over the last 2 years, and yours is the first positive comment I've heard.

Now, I'm sure there are a lot of people who like it, and don't say anything, or are neutral and are willing to say that; I think it's a good idea.

But everyone who wants to "be back in the club" because they "hate playing online" complain that they "have to" play online again, and not even against people this time.

The people who think the bots are c-, or are just really bad, or they can't read them (or they can't play them) say that.

And the bots tend to score 53, 54% in the average club, which a lot of players (especially the ones from the previous) really don't like.

And even if 5 sitouts out of 6 would prefer it, the squeaky wheel...

I'm interested that it has been tried: not here in Italy, where online and f2f seem to be two parallels forbidden to converge.
I do remember EBU playing national sims both online and f2f, both in the same club sometimes, although I never saw feedback on how it worked out.
I would certainly like to play the robots during a sitout, I guess about 3 of 6 pairs here would agree, a number which would rise with time.
I am (in many ways) happy to be back f2f, although I like playing online too (and perhaps more, for the reasons you know or can guess).
I don't think the bots are c-, but they are bad, at least when out of their comfort zone.
They scored well below 50% playing in pairs in my less than average club, once players got used to them (probably they do better if opponents play more like they do).

I guess the elephant in the room is playing in presence, but with tablets.
Seemed the least likely of all scenarios until a few years ago, but Covid gave us a fast forward and also a reality check on what gives the eggs.
USBF is doing it, WBF will be doing it for knockout bidding, first courageous club raise your hands.

[jillybean]

I play weekly in a game at a club that hosts a multiple sessions of in person and online events daily.
Last week we had 26 online pairs and 30 pairs at the club. The results are posted for club , online and across the field.
I'm new to this but I am really enjoying and benefitting from the ability to play online. When I have the choice I will play at the club but in the meanwhile, online is fine.
It's a very minimal shift to face an online bot at the club.
With some creativity perhaps we could run a web movement between club and online players.

Covid has obviously forced the issue but I see that this club has seen that there is a need to offer both approaches and they appear to have been very successful. I think players will move between online and club play as circumstances change, it gives people the ability to keep playing when club bridge is not available to them.

[pilowsky]

jillybean, on 2023-May-16, 10:39, said:

If I read between the sarcasm I think you may be saying this isn't real bridge? This is a similar reaction to when I was running Mentor-Mentee games for the Unit and wanted to let the mentee swap seats with the mentor so that they could be declarer. You can't do that!! C'mon, this is club bridge, not the Bermuda Bowl and you are handing out bucket loads of Master Points in online games with Robots a heaven knows what else is going on. What is the problem?

Personally I prefer persiflage and try to avoid sarcasm.
I think that one of the many reasons that Bridge is dying and fails to attract youth is its failure to embrace technology in any meaningful way.

[Gilithin]

How are they handling pairs playing transfer openings or some other highly artificial system? Would those pairs not just have a massive advantage?

[jillybean]

pilowsky, on 2023-May-16, 17:05, said:

Personally I prefer persiflage and try to avoid sarcasm.
I think that one of the many reasons that Bridge is dying and fails to attract youth is its failure to embrace technology in any meaningful way.

I obviously misunderstood your comment.

[jillybean]

Gilithin, on 2023-May-16, 20:52, said:

How are they handling pairs playing transfer openings or some other highly artificial system? Would those pairs not just have a massive advantage?

I don't know, I don't usually play against bots and I don't play with them. How do they handle any artificial call?

[AL78]

pilowsky, on 2023-May-16, 17:05, said:

Personally I prefer persiflage and try to avoid sarcasm.
I think that one of the many reasons that Bridge is dying and fails to attract youth is its failure to embrace technology in any meaningful way.

Bridge is not dying at my club, we keep getting new members, that is because we have an excellent teaching system for getting new people into the game.

It will not attract youth because bridge is a game optimised for retired people. When you have to arrive at a set time, have to play for a set time, and that set time can interfere with work and getting an evening meal, or childcare duties, it is going to be difficult to play duplicate regardless of whether it looks like a fun game. People's other halves may not like to be left holding the baby all evening. Add to that the fact that bridge is seen as an old persons game (for the reason just mentioned) and you are not getting many younger people into the game technology or not.

Unfortunately at my club F2F evening bridge seems to be dying with attendance dropping to 2.5 - 4 tables, which at this time of year cannot be blamed on winter flu, poor weather or dark evenings. Coupled with a committee which is biased towards online bridge, and at least one of them wants the evening F2F binned, I cannot see it surviving much beyond the next committee meeting at the end of June, in which case I will be unable to play F2F and will be terminating my membership.

[paulg]

jillybean, on 2023-May-15, 17:18, said:

I have just played at the Sunset Bridge Club in Kauai. We had just 3.5 tables, a 4 board round Howell. Back home, we would be heading out for a walk, coffee and gripe during the phantom round.
Here in tiny Kauai, they have 2 laptops set up and we sat and played against bots, entered the scores in the Bridgemates.
Brilliant !

It's always good to hear positive experiences of this setup. It has been discussed for a few years but I guess the pandemic has reduced a lot of the original negative feelings towards it.

For our virtual online club we do put robots in to prevent a sitout but remove them from the results (using BBO Extractor). This keeps everyone fairly happy that the robots are not beating too many pairs and that they are not an influence on all the club competitions: it also means that those more familiar with the robots are not gaining an unfair advantage.

If we did implement this scheme for f2f bridge, I expect we'd do the same so that there is no compunction to play 'online' at a f2f event and that the results will not matter.

The bots always assume that their opponents are playing the same 2/1 system that they do, so playing them in a Benj Acol world with four-card majors, weak no trump and strong 2♦ does randomise things.

[DavidKok]

Gilithin, on 2023-May-16, 20:52, said:

How are they handling pairs playing transfer openings or some other highly artificial system? Would those pairs not just have a massive advantage?

jillybean, on 2023-May-16, 21:28, said:

I don't know, I don't usually play against bots and I don't play with them. How do they handle any artificial call?

paulg, on 2023-May-17, 01:03, said:

The bots always assume that their opponents are playing the same 2/1 system that they do, so playing them in a Benj Acol world with four-card majors, weak no trump and strong 2♦ does randomise things.

This is also my experience. I recently tried a bidding practice series on BBO to get more familiar with some strong club 4cM systems, and the 1♣ and 2♣ openings in particular gave us an unfair advantage simply because the bots couldn't react to them properly.

[pescetom]

jillybean, on 2023-May-16, 16:49, said:

I play weekly in a game at a club that hosts a multiple sessions of in person and online events daily.
Last week we had 26 online pairs and 30 pairs at the club. The results are posted for club , online and across the field.
I'm new to this but I am really enjoying and benefitting from the ability to play online. When I have the choice I will play at the club but in the meanwhile, online is fine.
It's a very minimal shift to face an online bot at the club.
With some creativity perhaps we could run a web movement between club and online players.

Covid has obviously forced the issue but I see that this club has seen that there is a need to offer both approaches and they appear to have been very successful. I think players will move between online and club play as circumstances change, it gives people the ability to keep playing when club bridge is not available to them.

Two striking differences between our respective situations are the number of tables (my club could handle 15 tables at a stretch, but we are gravitating towards 7-8 and that is already more than pre covid) and the liberty conceded by RA (ours is firmly opposed to online play, unfortunately).

[barmar]

Using robots to avoid sit-outs has been popular for years. Our club, which was typically getting 6-7 tables pre-pandemic, and is now getting 4-5, has been using them for nearly as long as the capability has been around. I haven't heard of anyone complaining, and the pairs that play Precision like confusing the bots. Even if it throws a little randomness into the mix, it's better than twiddling thumbs for 20 minutes (or almost a half hour in the movements with 4-board rounds).

[blackshoe]

Kauai? I'm jealous. :-)

On what site do you play online?

[jillybean]

This was my first time in Kauai, I am trying to book again for next year.


https://www.akbc.co.nz/realbridge