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We had some discussion on how to find the slam and we came to the conclusion it was extremely difficult within the bounds of their knowledge of bidding and judgement (they've learnt Acol but only the fundamentals). One North opened 2♣ which shows a game going hand or eight playing tricks, then South responded with 2NT showing values and likely balanced, then all I could think of is North bidding 3♥ and South showing a control (which I explained must be a control as they would have bid 3♣ if they held values with a club suit). That might at a pinch get them there. How would you bid these hands?
How would you bid with these cards?
#1
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Posted 2023-July-04, 11:54
This hand came up at the beginners/improvers session yesterday:
We had some discussion on how to find the slam and we came to the conclusion it was extremely difficult within the bounds of their knowledge of bidding and judgement (they've learnt Acol but only the fundamentals). One North opened 2♣ which shows a game going hand or eight playing tricks, then South responded with 2NT showing values and likely balanced, then all I could think of is North bidding 3♥ and South showing a control (which I explained must be a control as they would have bid 3♣ if they held values with a club suit). That might at a pinch get them there. How would you bid these hands?
We had some discussion on how to find the slam and we came to the conclusion it was extremely difficult within the bounds of their knowledge of bidding and judgement (they've learnt Acol but only the fundamentals). One North opened 2♣ which shows a game going hand or eight playing tricks, then South responded with 2NT showing values and likely balanced, then all I could think of is North bidding 3♥ and South showing a control (which I explained must be a control as they would have bid 3♣ if they held values with a club suit). That might at a pinch get them there. How would you bid these hands?
#2
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Posted 2023-July-04, 12:12
1♥-2♣ (Acol style not GF)
2N (GF not always balanced)-3♥ (3 hearts, no 5th club or 4th diamond)
4♣-4♦
4N (spade cue, 4♠ would be kickback)-5♣
5♦-6♥
Not sure how it goes in more standard methods
Again we have agreements about a 2♣-2N where the minimum is higher than standard as it needs to be at least inv opposite 22-23 bal.
If I'm playing 2♣ as 8PTs, I would bid 2♣-2N-4♥ (solid suit) as I'm prepared to say my suit is solid opposite a small doubleton, and now I suspect it's guesswork and this is why I open 1♥ instead.
Are you teaching 1♥-2N as a raise or natural balanced ?
2N (GF not always balanced)-3♥ (3 hearts, no 5th club or 4th diamond)
4♣-4♦
4N (spade cue, 4♠ would be kickback)-5♣
5♦-6♥
Not sure how it goes in more standard methods
Again we have agreements about a 2♣-2N where the minimum is higher than standard as it needs to be at least inv opposite 22-23 bal.
If I'm playing 2♣ as 8PTs, I would bid 2♣-2N-4♥ (solid suit) as I'm prepared to say my suit is solid opposite a small doubleton, and now I suspect it's guesswork and this is why I open 1♥ instead.
Are you teaching 1♥-2N as a raise or natural balanced ?
#3
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Posted 2023-July-04, 12:59
Keep in mind your methods should NOT reach slam if the black suits (for either of the players) are switched!
#4
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Posted 2023-July-04, 13:37
Hi,
in an Acol system, B/I
1H - 2C (1)
3H (2) - 4D (3)
...
(1) I was told, that you never should bid 2NT facing a natural 1 level Acol opening.
As it is, it would work out reasonably well:
1H - 2NT
3S (*) - 4C
...
(*) Self Splinter, but before I start discussing self splinter, I am sure, I find
more urgent topics
(2) Creates a GF (!Make sure this is understood!), not setting trumps.
(3) A control bid, new suits on the 4 level should become control bids, setting the last suit as trumps.
This is an agreement, that has a reasonably high freq. of occurrence, and you could discuss this as
a possible tool for investigating slams.
The problem with 4D is, the responding hand is min, so it may or may not be suggested due to
the fact, that one sees both hands.
I would not fault a 4H raise.
If responder finds the 4D bid, you have a 9+ trump fit, the Queen of hearts / and Ace, and a
hard club control, you are through.
...
It is also worth pointing out to the B/I player, that 3S instead of 3H is also a splinter, in support
of clubs, and that a raise to 4C showes slam interest without a shortage, in other words a 5422 shape.
in an Acol system, B/I
1H - 2C (1)
3H (2) - 4D (3)
...
(1) I was told, that you never should bid 2NT facing a natural 1 level Acol opening.
As it is, it would work out reasonably well:
1H - 2NT
3S (*) - 4C
...
(*) Self Splinter, but before I start discussing self splinter, I am sure, I find
more urgent topics
(2) Creates a GF (!Make sure this is understood!), not setting trumps.
(3) A control bid, new suits on the 4 level should become control bids, setting the last suit as trumps.
This is an agreement, that has a reasonably high freq. of occurrence, and you could discuss this as
a possible tool for investigating slams.
The problem with 4D is, the responding hand is min, so it may or may not be suggested due to
the fact, that one sees both hands.
I would not fault a 4H raise.
If responder finds the 4D bid, you have a 9+ trump fit, the Queen of hearts / and Ace, and a
hard club control, you are through.
...
It is also worth pointing out to the B/I player, that 3S instead of 3H is also a splinter, in support
of clubs, and that a raise to 4C showes slam interest without a shortage, in other words a 5422 shape.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#5
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Posted 2023-July-04, 13:48
P_Marlowe, on 2023-July-04, 13:37, said:
Hi,
in an Acol system, B/I
1H - 2C (1)
3H (2) - 4D (3)
...
(1) I was told, that you never should bid 2NT facing a natural 1 level Acol opening.
As it is, it would work out reasonably well:
1H - 2NT
3S (*) - 4C
...
(*) Self Splinter, but before I start discussing self splinter, I am sure, I find
more urgent topics
(2) Creates a GF (!Make sure this is understood!), not setting trumps.
(3) A control bid, new suits on the 4 level should become control bids, setting the last suit as trumps.
This is an agreement, that has a reasonably high freq. of occurrence, and you could discuss this as
a possible tool for investigating slams.
The problem with 4D is, the responding hand is min, so it may or may not be suggested due to
the fact, that one sees both hands.
I would not fault a 4H raise.
If responder finds the 4D bid, you have a 9+ trump fit, the Queen of hearts / and Ace, and a
hard club control, you are through.
in an Acol system, B/I
1H - 2C (1)
3H (2) - 4D (3)
...
(1) I was told, that you never should bid 2NT facing a natural 1 level Acol opening.
As it is, it would work out reasonably well:
1H - 2NT
3S (*) - 4C
...
(*) Self Splinter, but before I start discussing self splinter, I am sure, I find
more urgent topics
(2) Creates a GF (!Make sure this is understood!), not setting trumps.
(3) A control bid, new suits on the 4 level should become control bids, setting the last suit as trumps.
This is an agreement, that has a reasonably high freq. of occurrence, and you could discuss this as
a possible tool for investigating slams.
The problem with 4D is, the responding hand is min, so it may or may not be suggested due to
the fact, that one sees both hands.
I would not fault a 4H raise.
If responder finds the 4D bid, you have a 9+ trump fit, the Queen of hearts / and Ace, and a
hard club control, you are through.
But are you sorted, doesn't responder bid the same way with QJx, Qxx, Axx, Kxxx which is not a good slam ?
#6
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Posted 2023-July-04, 14:07
Cyberyeti, on 2023-July-04, 12:12, said:
Are you teaching 1♥-2N as a raise or natural balanced ?
I don't do the core teaching but I think they are taught that sequence is 10-11 balanced. I try to discourage them from making that bid because I think it swallows bidding space that could be better used for opener to finish describing their hand. If opener opens 1♥ I'd advise them to respond 2♣ so they can find out opener's strength and shape.
#7
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Posted 2023-July-04, 14:14
Cyberyeti, on 2023-July-04, 13:48, said:
But are you sorted, doesn't responder bid the same way with QJx, Qxx, Axx, Kxxx which is not a good slam ?
Would you make a control bid which is a forward going move with a minimum 2/1 response and a partner who is limited by the fact they haven't opened 2♣ to show at least an 8PT hand?
#8
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Posted 2023-July-04, 15:07
Cyberyeti, on 2023-July-04, 13:48, said:
But are you sorted, doesn't responder bid the same way with QJx, Qxx, Axx, Kxxx which is not a good slam ?
If the comment was with regards to 4D, see my comment, in the post you are quoting, that I am not 100% convinced,
that this is a bid, I am expected to find at the table.
Also with this hand responding 2NT instead of 2C is a valid option, due to distributed values.
Which would imply, that 2C should indicate a certain amount of concentrated values in the suit.
But in short: yes, it is quite likely, that if I find a 4D bid with one hand, I will most likely find the 4D bid with the
other hand as well.
In general: If I get a pair of hands, and the question is, how to reach a particular contract, I try to find themes,
that show up with other hands. And I try to answer in the context of the question, your given 2NT response is hardly B/I
stuff.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#9
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Posted 2023-July-04, 15:25
AL78, on 2023-July-04, 14:14, said:
Would you make a control bid which is a forward going move with a minimum 2/1 response and a partner who is limited by the fact they haven't opened 2♣ to show at least an 8PT hand?
It's a 12 count which is nowhere near minimum for the 2/1, I'd 2/1 without ♠Q
Playing your system, yes there is the inference that partner doesn't have 8 tricks, playing mine the minimum for 2♣ is a lot more.
#10
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Posted 2023-July-04, 15:29
P_Marlowe, on 2023-July-04, 15:07, said:
And I try to answer in the context of the question, your given 2NT response is hardly B/I
stuff.
stuff.
The thread was "How do you bid" which I answered for us, but then talked a bit about more standard approaches.
We play 2N as a raise (4 card heart so guarantees 4) so wasn't an option for us.
#11
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Posted 2023-July-04, 15:33
Depends upon the level of methods they have mastered, but it's hard to see how they can miss this glaring occasion.
If the agreement is to open a natural 1♥ then S should game force and show fit, in their usual way.
Now with nothing more than natural logic, N can close his eyes and bid slam.
Equipped with the standard RKCB crutch, he can bid 4NT and discover an ace (with 2 singletons this is a happy problem) and if playing the 1403 super-crutch even discover the ♥Q for added reassurance
Equipped with Italian style control-bidding they can stop in 6♥ knowing they lack ♠A.
If the agreement is to open a natural 1♥ then S should game force and show fit, in their usual way.
Now with nothing more than natural logic, N can close his eyes and bid slam.
Equipped with the standard RKCB crutch, he can bid 4NT and discover an ace (with 2 singletons this is a happy problem) and if playing the 1403 super-crutch even discover the ♥Q for added reassurance
Equipped with Italian style control-bidding they can stop in 6♥ knowing they lack ♠A.
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Posted 2023-July-04, 16:17
Cyberyeti, on 2023-July-04, 15:25, said:
It's a 12 count which is nowhere near minimum for the 2/1, I'd 2/1 without ♠Q
Playing your system, yes there is the inference that partner doesn't have 8 tricks, playing mine the minimum for 2♣ is a lot more.
Playing your system, yes there is the inference that partner doesn't have 8 tricks, playing mine the minimum for 2♣ is a lot more.
It is a poor flat 8 loser 12 count with nearly half the HCP in soft values so I would put it in the minimum category. I've seen 2/1 bids on nine or ten counts with much better trick taking potential.
#13
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Posted 2023-July-04, 19:06
If North opens that style of 2♣ (Acol 2 or GF) it should be easy, even for improvers, since the most popular response scheme uses 2♦ as a generic relay and 2♥ as a non-forcing bust: 2♣ - 2♦ -- 3♥(sets suit) - 4♣ (gives 5 lvl safety) and a basic RKCB auction will get you the rest. Similarly if you play some sort of Namyats, a 3NT or 4♣ opening will allow North to show a 1 loser heart suit and ♣A on the side. That is going to be too advanced for this class though. So most pairs are going to be left with a simple 1♥ auction. After the obvious 2♣ response, North has a bit of a tricky choice but given that the Acol 2s are already covered, I would suggest that this is the closest hand I have seen to a 4♥ rebid in the last 20 years or so. The problem there though is that even if South continues, RKCB is off the table and subtle cue auctions tend to be a little beyond low intermediates, so it probably means slam won't be reached with any confidence. And creative rebids like 3♦ might work here but are not what I want to be teaching in a B/I bidding lesson! Similarly, a 2NT response to 1♥, even if natural, would be a poor choice with ♠xxx, even if we can use it to construct a workable auction.
When hands like this come up in beginner classes, a reasonable reaction is to tell them that there are methods to bid these slams but they come later on that they first need to perfect their basic system bidding. It gives them something to work towards and look forward to. You don't have to get to every making slam to be a good bidder in the improver category.
When hands like this come up in beginner classes, a reasonable reaction is to tell them that there are methods to bid these slams but they come later on that they first need to perfect their basic system bidding. It gives them something to work towards and look forward to. You don't have to get to every making slam to be a good bidder in the improver category.
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Posted 2023-July-04, 23:50
AL78, on 2023-July-04, 14:07, said:
I don't do the core teaching but I think they are taught that sequence is 10-11 balanced. I try to discourage them from making that bid because I think it swallows bidding space that could be better used for opener to finish describing their hand. If opener opens 1♥ I'd advise them to respond 2♣ so they can find out opener's strength and shape.
The question is, assume
xxx
xx
AKQJ
6542
If the auction starts with 1H, do you recommend 2C or 2D?
If the goal is to find out about openers shape / strength, the best bid would be 2C,
meaning that 2C does / can not promise concentrated values.
Given the light opening common in Acol, discouraging 2NT is sensible, ..., the question arises,
if you never make the bid, can the meaning of the bid be replaced ny something that comes up.
The given set of hands raises question regarding the meaning of bids made earlier the bidding
seq., and how you answer those questions has implications on later bids.
Since the strength of Acol 2/1 comes up regular, would it still be a 2/1 if you take away the jack,
replace it with a club or diamond?
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#15
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Posted 2023-July-05, 00:45
Also if we strengthen the South hand, adding the king of diamonds, how should the auction go,
as someone already stated, you dont want to be in slam with swapped black colors in either hand.
Both hands are min with regards to HCP ( you could do with the Queen of hearts, given the 10 card fit),
and you also need every single shape feature, in other words no real wastage, bidding those slams, and
staying out of the bad ones is hard, so it is useful to add some wastage, to see if you get there.
as someone already stated, you dont want to be in slam with swapped black colors in either hand.
Both hands are min with regards to HCP ( you could do with the Queen of hearts, given the 10 card fit),
and you also need every single shape feature, in other words no real wastage, bidding those slams, and
staying out of the bad ones is hard, so it is useful to add some wastage, to see if you get there.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#16
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Posted 2023-July-05, 01:18
There's no way I am getting to slam on the example hands. Even on 1♥-2NT (~9-14 3(+) heart raise) opener needs to find every card fitting perfectly for slam. I don't have a way to show two singletons.
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Posted 2023-July-05, 01:26
DavidKok, on 2023-July-05, 01:18, said:
There's no way I am getting to slam on the example hands. Even on 1♥-2NT (~9-14 3(+) heart raise) opener needs to find every card fitting perfectly for slam. I don't have a way to show two singletons.
In our system it may go
1H - 2H (1)
3S (2) - 4C (3)
...
(1) constructive raise, 7-10, partner taking a (possible sensible) view, to downgrade due to the 4333
(2) splinter, not obvious, I am not sure, if 4H qualifies as a "lazy" bid in the seq., but a bid I may make
it is also possible, that the opponents wake up, double 3S and find a profitable sac. in 4S
(3) control bid, the first cue being honor based, showing suitable values / dream cards, and we still need
opener to believe in his good luck / fortune
To summarize: we would need the luck / coincindence, that both players take a view, that leads to getting there,
not impossible, but also not likely.
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
#18
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Posted 2023-July-05, 02:07
I open 1♥ playing 2/1 GI, but only use these bids with 3-card support if GF i.e. the modified loser count is less than or equal to 7
In this case the raw count is 8.5 which I upgrade to 7.5 given the Q♥. has trick taking value.
I use bids from 2♠ upwards to show various strengths/lengths (mostly 4-card) of ♥ support. In this case 2NT shows this modified loser count and either 3/4♥.
Opener is now in a position to invite the slam
1♥-2NT 3/4♥ 7.5 modified losers
3♠ 5.5 modified losers w. control - 5♣ odd number of keycards w. ♦ & ♣ controls
5♦ Q♥? missing 1 keycard-6♥ Q♥
The 2♣ would be more straightforward, but too hcp light for me
2♣-2♦
2♥ Kokish Relay- 2♠ forced
3♦ 6+♥ no 4-card side suit-etc. to slam
In this case the raw count is 8.5 which I upgrade to 7.5 given the Q♥. has trick taking value.
I use bids from 2♠ upwards to show various strengths/lengths (mostly 4-card) of ♥ support. In this case 2NT shows this modified loser count and either 3/4♥.
Opener is now in a position to invite the slam
1♥-2NT 3/4♥ 7.5 modified losers
3♠ 5.5 modified losers w. control - 5♣ odd number of keycards w. ♦ & ♣ controls
5♦ Q♥? missing 1 keycard-6♥ Q♥
The 2♣ would be more straightforward, but too hcp light for me
2♣-2♦
2♥ Kokish Relay- 2♠ forced
3♦ 6+♥ no 4-card side suit-etc. to slam
#19
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Posted 2023-July-05, 03:13
My auction would start
1♥-(P)-2♣-(P)
2♦
if opps would allow me, but that seems very unlikely.
Here
are 100 random deals using
.
1♥-(P)-2♣-(P)
2♦
if opps would allow me, but that seems very unlikely.
Here
Spoiler
are 100 random deals using
predeal north S3,HAKJT6532,D8,CA64
predeal south S952,HQ94,DA95,CKQ82
produce 100
.
#20
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Posted 2023-July-05, 06:38
I really wouldn’t expect or worry about reaching slam in a beginner/improver session. After all the hands fit perfectly, swap either players black suits and it’s hopeless. An advanced/expert pair might get there with decent methods, but for B/I I’d expect 4H + 2 most of the time, and if they were to get to slam I think possibly the more interesting teaching point is can they avoid bidding slam with for example Norths black suits being switched?
"definitely that's what I like to play when I'm playing standard - I want to be able to bid diamonds because bidding good suits is important in bridge" - Meckstroth's opinion on weak 2 diamond
