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What is best? Bidding agreement When our side is preempted

Poll: What is best? Bidding agreement (5 member(s) have cast votes)

What is 3H?

  1. Great fit in clubs (or diamonds if 1D opened) (1 votes [20.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 20.00%

  2. Query for 3NT but denies H stoppers (2 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

  3. Rightsiding 3NT; says nothing about H stoppers (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  4. Spade + unbid (both long suits) (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  5. Other (please describe below) (2 votes [40.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 40.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#1 User is offline   shyams 

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Posted 2023-August-30, 08:39

We play 2/1, 15-17 NT.

Partner opens 1 (or 1) and next player bids 2 (weak 6+card hearts). What is the best systemic use for 3 by responder?

Note: we play 1m 2 dbl as showing a spade suit. Presumably using 3 for stronger hands with longer spades is wasteful so I have not included it above.

Apologies if this has been asked before. A buddy and I have resumed playing as a partnership after a long time. Your replies here will help shape our bidding agreements.

#2 User is offline   mikeh 

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Posted 2023-August-30, 09:15

Your poll questions don’t quite include what I think is the most common agreement…which I happen to think is the ‘best’ for the great majority of players and which I play myself and have with every partner with whom I’ve ever had a specific agreement. Indeed, I’d expect any competent player to assume that we played this way… don’t think I’ve ever actually sat down and said ‘this is what I like’ because it is so common.

Your poll includes it being ‘a great fit’. Which is nt exactly how I’d describe it, because (as an example) xx xx xx xxx xxxxxx could be looked at as a great fit.

3H is a raise of partner’s suit. Given that it forces to at least 4 of a minor, it shows not only a good fit but also, and importantly, a good hand.

As it happens, it is also almost always, but not expressly and not 109% always, a request to bid 3N with an ordinary hand that includes a stopper…but that is more of a practical effec of the bid than its specific purpose…remember that partner will bid as if his suit is trump if 3N is unbiddable or inadequate (opener may have slam ambitions after hearing 3H) so responder can’t fudge.

This creates problems on some hands, but preempts have that effect, which is why people preempt.
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#3 User is offline   DavidKok 

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Posted 2023-August-30, 09:44

I think the stopper ask(/ambiguous raise/advance cue/Western Cue Bid) is standard, and would expect this. It fills a nice gap in the other bids we have available - hands with no spades, no long club suit and no stoppers have to go somewhere.

If you're asking what I think is best - I think there's options to play very artificial systems in competitive auctions. My personal guess for best would depend on the minor suit opened, though that's because of a quirk of the meanings of my 1m openings. As a reasonable compromise and still within the realms of mortal memory loads I think Rubensohl is a playable alternative. Incidentally this splits out the minor suit raises (bid one under the minor) from the balanced hands looking for a stopper (bid 3), though there are downsides as well. I think this can be improved upon but is too complicated to be of realistic value.

#4 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2023-August-31, 15:07

Lots of people (I think in NA) will treat it as a big raise or opener’s suit, a GF hand with a nice fit.

Where I live, it is more used as a stopper ask on a GF hand, that might hide a huge fit and a very strong hand that will bid over 3NT.

It is more flexible with balanced hands with 3 or less S and no biddable suit in the other minor (5 lousy or 4-cd, not wishing to be supported if the bidding gets competitive). This btw often implies some kind of tolerance for opener’s suit (you don’t have S, H and D so might have a few C’s!). Maybe KQx xx(x) AJxx Kxx(x).

#5 User is offline   helene_t 

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Posted 2023-September-01, 02:29

Playing NFB, 3 could be invitational or stronger with spades. A GF with the other minor is also an option. It all depends how the rest of the bids are defined.

In standard methods, it shows support, but obviously it is also true that opener will then usually bid notrumps if they have a stopper, so you could say that it is also a stopper ask although it doesn't deny a stopper.

However, opener isn't forced to rebid notrumps with any hand with a stopper. The cuebid shows support, it doesn't show stoppers in the unbid suits. In general we don't worry so much about stoppers in unbid suits when opps have bid, but nevertheless opener will try not to bid 3NT with a void in spades now that responder has denied a 4-card spades.

On a bad day, responder will make the cuebid with 3-card support, so it doesn't 100% promise primary support. But opener shouldn't worry about that, responder will have genuine support more than 90% of the time and opener rebids based on that assumption.
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#6 User is offline   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2023-September-01, 04:46

It depends what sort of style you play for your 1 & 1 openings (i.e. do you have a GI/GF sequence available at lower levels). I use the direct 3-level responses to show distributional hands with 9-10, support and 4-cards in the bid suit capable of playing at the 4-level in either suit or 3NT

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