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need opinions bidding

#1 User is offline   123600 

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Posted 2023-November-17, 17:21

i am dealer sitting N bidding goes P 1C P 1D 2C 2S 3C? P 4H P P P
I have 5S and 5H and am bidding Michaels. MY pard thinks opener is a short club and i'm long clubs I have only 4 HCP
first off he forgets about michaels and does have 3H and 14 HCP. his point is even if he picked up on the M bid i cant do it after a passed hand, nor with only 4 pts,
we end up down one and better than average score.
comments PLS
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#2 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2023-November-17, 18:13

I would not bid Michaels with 4 hcp, your partner has not made a move and the opps are unlimited.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
(still learning)
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#3 User is offline   apollo1201 

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Posted 2023-November-18, 11:12

Your partner’s bidding makes actually sense.

They have 14 HCP and some fit for one of your suits.

With standard conventions, they should just blast game unless their hand has specific features where slam is possible.

Maybe they know you call Michael with virtually anything as long as it is 55, so they cued opp’s suit to check your strength and invite game.

You decided that you had enough for game so they respected your decision.

If they believed you had C, they wouldn’t just bid 3C with such a strong hand. And they would not leave you in H.

But if your H bid was a « wake up » call, there could be some ethical claims around and TD might adjust score.
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#4 User is offline   Gilithin 

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Posted 2023-November-18, 13:35

This feels like a hand that is yearning for the TD forums. Did your partner really forget Michaels or is it that you did not have a firm agreement about which, if any, of the 2 suits is a cue after a short club opening? Do you play UNT? Why did you not bid 1NT instead of 2? In your version of the system, what should your partner's 3 bid have meant? Were the opponents suitably informed about your agreements including timely alerts? Was there any UI transmitted when one or both of you realised there had been a misunderstanding? Were the opponents damaged by any MI or UI? I am not going to comment on the hand itself because 4hcp is not a proper description of the hand. It might be 65432 65432 K J2 or it might be KT987 JT987 6 54, which are very different hands. Heck we do not even have the vulnerability. So unless you want to discuss your ethical obligations, I am not sure where we can be helpful.
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#5 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-November-18, 16:16

After 13 years on the forum it would seem due to insert a handviewer diagram of cards and auction.
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#6 User is offline   123600 

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Posted 2023-November-19, 06:16

i want to thank those who replied and apologize for not supplying a hand diagram. i can't fully remember the cards, in fact i can't remember if the contract was 3h or 4 ( old age does that to you)
there were 2 questions my P and i had 1] can mcls be bid with 4HCP and 2] can mcls be bid from a passed hand. The first was a general NO,but to answer one resp. the HCP were in the majors and be reminded that the hand is much more powerful than just HCP. If my P had accepted mcls. and the ops had allowed we would be playing 3H with the strong hand hidden. Also this is a p who will bid in third seat with 4 pts after an P P.
The second issue was not answered.
What has completely floored me though is the suggestion that there could be an ethics question.This is far and away beyond my horizon and don't know where the infraction might be. In one case it is suggested that my P deliberately refused the mcls. bid. I can assure you this was not the case.
i also kind of anticipated someone addressing the result. a better than average result. but no comment.
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#7 User is offline   pescetom 

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Posted 2023-November-19, 11:12

View Post123600, on 2023-November-19, 06:16, said:

i want to thank those who replied and apologize for not supplying a hand diagram. i can't fully remember the cards, in fact i can't remember if the contract was 3h or 4 ( old age does that to you)

Fair enough. Although it's always difficult to reply accurately without knowing the precise cards, auction and vulnerability.

View Post123600, on 2023-November-19, 06:16, said:

there were 2 questions my P and i had 1] can mcls be bid with 4HCP and 2] can mcls be bid from a passed hand. The first was a general NO,but to answer one resp. the HCP were in the majors and be reminded that the hand is much more powerful than just HCP. If my P had accepted mcls. and the ops had allowed we would be playing 3H with the strong hand hidden. Also this is a p who will bid in third seat with 4 pts after an P P.
The second issue was not answered.

(1) I don't think there is a unique answer. 4HCP is extreme but not outrageous, not necessarily bad bridge and nowhere near illegal. More than anything else it is a question of partnership agreement and accurate disclosure of such.
(2) idem, but it is quite common for Michaels to be ON by a passed hand (and this is recommended by Larry Cohen for instance).



View Post123600, on 2023-November-19, 06:16, said:

What has completely floored me though is the suggestion that there could be an ethics question.This is far and away beyond my horizon and don't know where the infraction might be. In one case it is suggested that my P deliberately refused the mcls. bid. I can assure you this was not the case.

You were already asked a precise series of questions that would help clarify possible ethical issues, see below.

View PostGilithin, on 2023-November-18, 13:35, said:

Did your partner really forget Michaels or is it that you did not have a firm agreement about which, if any, of the 2 suits is a cue after a short club opening? Do you play UNT? Why did you not bid 1NT instead of 2? In your version of the system, what should your partner's 3 bid have meant? Were the opponents suitably informed about your agreements including timely alerts? Was there any UI transmitted when one or both of you realised there had been a misunderstanding? Were the opponents damaged by any MI or UI?

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#8 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2023-November-19, 12:29

123600, on 2023-November-19, 06:16, said:

there were 2 questions my P and i had 1] can mcls be bid with 4HCP and 2] can mcls be bid from a passed hand.


The answer to both is that it depends on a) the vulnerability which is extremely important, and b) what you have agreed with your partner. There is no correct answer to what your bid means in your provided auction without agreement and it is dangerous to make such a bid as a result; your partner definitely isn't wrong just because they interpreted it differently.

I am not an expert myself, but from everything I've read of their posts, experts make weak two suited bids much less often than lower level players, because if you don't win the contract, you've given away far too much information to declarer.

123600, on 2023-November-19, 06:16, said:

i also kind of anticipated someone addressing the result. a better than average result. but no comment.

The one thing you should never, ever, do is judge whether something was right or not by the single result at the table.
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