BBO Discussion Forums: Multi 2 continuations - BBO Discussion Forums

Jump to content

Page 1 of 1

Multi 2 continuations

#1 User is offline   Knurdler 

  • PipPip
  • Group: Members
  • Posts: 32
  • Joined: 2021-February-14
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:South Africa

Posted 2024-October-07, 13:41

Most of my bridge club (I am in South Africa) plays the multi 2 diamond convention 5 ways: long weak major, strong minor or 20 point NT.
Without debating the merits of the multi 2, I have 3 questions on continuations.

1. What sort of suit and strength does a 3H or 3S response to 2D require?

2. After 2D 2NT – responder is showing opening hand. What does opener rebid with 20 points? Opener knows there is 33+ between the 2 hands. 3C, 3D, 3H, 3S, 4C 4D are all allocated specific meanings. Maybe 3NT? – is that shut out? Maybe 4NT? – is it blackwood or quantitative and should we be in a suit?
This came up last week, so will likely never see it again. We blundered into 7NT, making.

3. After 2D (X) – I currently play 2H 2S 2NT retain their normal meaning. I now have 2 other bids (pass and XX). What should each one mean?
More than 1 site suggests P = happy to play 2D doubled. This sounds fairly rare and does not impede 3rd hand at all.
Some say XX = willing to compete to third level. I do not know what this means – how strong is responder? What suit/s is responder happy with? What assumption is responder making about opener’s hand?

Tks
1

#2 User is offline   mw64ahw 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 1,185
  • Joined: 2021-February-13
  • Gender:Not Telling
  • Interests:Bidding & play optimisation via simulation.

Posted 2024-October-08, 00:57

This is where I was a couple of years ago, but have since tweaked my multi as follows
  • Strong balanced is now 24-27, with 20-21 played as reverse 'birthright'
  • 2-2M-3 to 3N are now primary

This has a few advantages, namely a) the probability of the strong hand decreases thus reducing your issues above, b) more flexibility with 20-21 in that direct transfers are forcing, but you can still play in 2/3, c) You can play in 3 with a bust hand.

Now coming to your questions
  • Suit wise for 3 I tend to want Hx or xxx with 3 having longer than . Strength is a tricky one to judge as it is a factor of hcp, distribution and vulnerability; you want to preempt you opponents out of game, but not end up at the 3-level going down when the opponents aren't making. Judgement is gained with experience, but I tend to preempt more with weaker hands.
  • You can shift your bids up a level for the strong hands and play your normal approach, but if you make the tweaks above then 6/7N is almost guaranteed.
  • Looks Ok, but XX could be penalty.

0

#3 User is online   paulg 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 5,082
  • Joined: 2003-April-26
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Scottish Borders

Posted 2024-October-08, 01:30

View PostKnurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

Most of my bridge club (I am in South Africa) plays the multi 2 diamond convention 5 ways: long weak major, strong minor or 20 point NT.
Without debating the merits of the multi 2, I have 3 questions on continuations.

The continuations are very much constrained by the options you put into the Multi 2, so I won't debate your choices but it limits my response.

View PostKnurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

3. After 2D (X) – I currently play 2H 2S 2NT retain their normal meaning. I now have 2 other bids (pass and XX). What should each one mean?
More than 1 site suggests P = happy to play 2D doubled. This sounds fairly rare and does not impede 3rd hand at all.
Some say XX = willing to compete to third level. I do not know what this means – how strong is responder? What suit/s is responder happy with? What assumption is responder making about opener's hand?

Tks

When someone doubles your Multi, it is highly unlikely that you will have a strong hand and continuations should be based on partner holding a long weak major.

I play Kit Woolsey's method for passing 2: namely passing asks partner to pass if they hold three or more diamonds. Such a specific method removes the ethical problems of hesitations or fast passes and tells the opponents exactly what is likely to occur.

I play redouble as showing my own long suit, so opener is expected to puppet to 2 and then I will show my suit, perhaps by passing.


The Beer Card

I don't work for BBO and any advice is based on my BBO experience over the decades
1

#4 User is offline   Tramticket 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,101
  • Joined: 2009-May-03
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Kent (Near London)

Posted 2024-October-08, 09:20

Strange topic for the Novice and Beginner Forum!

View PostKnurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

1. What sort of suit and strength does a 3H or 3S response to 2D require?


For us, 3H suggests three hearts and at least thhree spades. 3S suggests three spades and at least four hearts.


View PostKnurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

2. After 2D 2NT – responder is showing opening hand. What does opener rebid with 20 points? Opener knows there is 33+ between the 2 hands. 3C, 3D, 3H, 3S, 4C 4D are all allocated specific meanings.


I don't like the methods, but if you are going to include strong minors in the multi, you need to be able to show them. 4C/4D is the traditional response. 3NT should show the balanced hand.


View PostKnurdler, on 2024-October-07, 13:41, said:

3. After 2D (X) – I currently play 2H 2S 2NT retain their normal meaning. I now have 2 other bids (pass and XX). What should each one mean?


We use pass as no tolerance for the majors and length in diamonds. We use redouble as no tolerance in the majors and length in clubs.
0

#5 User is offline   P_Marlowe 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,239
  • Joined: 2005-March-18
  • Gender:Male

Posted 2024-October-08, 10:31

Hi,

#1 The first question to answer, how often can a 5 carder be part of the multi,
and what suit quality you will have.
If never, you should at least sometimes make a pass / correct bid with 2+/3+.

Playing the Multi you loose the option to make a simple blocking raise.
You can regain some ground, if you are allowed to make a blocking raise with Hx,
and if your 3 carder was the suit, you are even LoTT conform.

#2 3NT should show the 20+ bal. hand, and is obv. forcing, at least to 4NT, (or 5NT)
and you can play you normal system after a 2NT opening.

#3 Pass is to play, XX should force 2H, allowing the Multi partner to bid his own suit.

With kind regards
Marlowe
With kind regards
Uwe Gebhardt (P_Marlowe)
0

#6 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,866
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2024-October-08, 12:28

View PostTramticket, on 2024-October-08, 09:20, said:

Strange topic for the Novice and Beginner Forum!



Shouldn't it be automatic for a moderator to move the thread?
0

#7 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,094
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Vancouver, Canada
  • Interests:Multi

Posted 2024-October-08, 14:37

View PostTramticket, on 2024-October-08, 09:20, said:

Strange topic for the Novice and Beginner Forum!


I think you only find it a strange topic because Multi is forbidden in North America.
Oh, you are from the UK. nvm
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
0

#8 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,094
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Vancouver, Canada
  • Interests:Multi

Posted 2024-October-08, 14:40

View Postpescetom, on 2024-October-08, 12:28, said:

Shouldn't it be automatic for a moderator to move the thread?

Please move it to the changing laws and regulations thread.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
0

#9 User is offline   pescetom 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 7,866
  • Joined: 2014-February-18
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Italy

Posted 2024-October-15, 06:35

View Postjillybean, on 2024-October-08, 14:37, said:

I think you only find it a strange topic because Multi is forbidden in North America.
Oh, you are from the UK. nvm

Multi is allowed at any level in Italy, too (a club could ban it but they never do), but I still find it a strange topic for N/B. I try to protect our Novices from learning conventions, although they usually come to me with Stayman and Jacoby transfers and even Ace asking already instilled. Nobody here would teach beginners Multi, though.
0

#10 User is offline   jillybean 

  • hooked
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 10,094
  • Joined: 2003-November-15
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:Vancouver, Canada
  • Interests:Multi

Posted 2024-October-15, 07:37

View Postpescetom, on 2024-October-15, 06:35, said:

Multi is allowed at any level in Italy, too (a club could ban it but they never do), but I still find it a strange topic for N/B. I try to protect our Novices from learning conventions, although they usually come to me with Stayman and Jacoby transfers and even Ace asking already instilled. Nobody here would teach beginners Multi, though.

I agree, Multi should not be included in Novice lessons but that is very different from a new player asking about conventions. Tell them! If Multi is regularly played at the club, the sooner players are interested in learning, the better.
"And no matter what methods you play, it is essential, for anyone aspiring to learn to be a good player, to learn the importance of bidding shape properly." MikeH
0

#11 User is offline   helene_t 

  • The Abbess
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 17,195
  • Joined: 2004-April-22
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:UK

Posted 2024-October-15, 08:43

2. If 3nt doesn't show some weak hand then it seems logical to let it show the strong balanced hand.
3. Pass ahows diamonds i.e. asks opener to pass, xx shows an own suit and asks opener to bid 2h even if they have spades
The world would be such a happy place, if only everyone played Acol :) --- TramTicket
0

#12 User is online   DavidKok 

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Advanced Members
  • Posts: 2,522
  • Joined: 2020-March-30
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Netherlands

Posted 2024-October-15, 13:28

When I most recently played a multi 2 it was weak-only. We had the following response scheme:

Spoiler

Furthermore we had the following rules about competitive auctions:
Spoiler
This is a lot, but it helped us a bunch to have clear rules and expectations. The auction almost always started 2-(P)-2M or 2-(2M) so that's where you should focus your time and energy. Four closing remarks:

  • I have before seen people play 2-(X)-P*-(P); ? with the same definition as above for the pass, but now utilising redouble to show spades and 2 to show hearts. The idea is that responder with a long diamond hand may choose 2XX over 2. I don't know how to feel about this.
  • Our multi (properly: Wagner) was weak-only. Without this most of the preemptive jumps can practically be removed from the system both in and out of competition, and also the liberal pass, 4-way 2 and 3-way 2 won't work as well. The problem is that if partner opens a 2 multi containing strong options and we have a weak hand with support for both majors, the chance that partner is strong is somewhat high, and the costs of preempting partner if they have that hand can be really large. So you have to seriously gut the system to cater to a hand type that is normally infrequent and also can be easily bid in other ways. This is why I personally much prefer taking the strong hands out of the 2 opening.
  • We very frequently opened 2 on a five card suit, including a lot of hands that would fail to qualify for a preempt by the standards of most players. We found that the less disciplined we were, the more it won. This might be something to take into consideration.
  • Lastly, my apologies for the long and much too detailed text in the novice and beginner forum.

0

Page 1 of 1


Fast Reply

  

1 User(s) are reading this topic
0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users