[mike777]

Have you ever opened a weak 3C NV in first or second seat on a 6 card suit?
If so, how have your results been? Lessons learned?

[pescetom]

mike777, on 2024-December-19, 17:07, said:

Have you ever opened a weak 3C NV in first or second seat on a 6 card suit?
If so, how have your results been? Lessons learned?

It used to be a passion of mine, I got wary of it.
It pushes the opps into the wrong contract often enough, but you need a clear agreement on with what hand you will do it, plus honest disclosure to opponents (including having it on the card and accurately observing alert/announcement regulations).
It's vital not to disappoint partner's expectations of suit quality / hand strength and wise to avoid altogether if you know she easily looses confidence at the first bad result.

It also depends a bit upon what a 4C opening is to you. For years I played this as hearts and so 3C handled more hands.

[DavidKok]

Yes, regularly. The 5 card suit 3♣ openings are debatable, but 6 is a clear winner. The same goes for 3♦. Hands with a high ODR should bid to the level of maximum pressure, which may or may not be the traditional preempt level based on your trump suit length. In my opinion requiring 7 cards for a 3-level preempt is archaic.

I do play 2♦ and 4m as natural and weak. That doesn't change that 3m (or 3M!) is regularly the best opening with 6, so I want to have that option available.

I'm more aggressive than most when it comes to preempts. I kept track of the results over a year, and the more I relaxed the requirements the more it kept winning. Other partnerships will have other styles though, so make sure to discuss what is right for you. I've been following the steady stream of good scores and ended up at my current approach.

 pescetom, on 2024-December-19, 17:25, said:

It's vital not to disappoint partner's expectations of suit quality / hand strength and wise to avoid altogether if you know she easily looses confidence at the first bad result.

I agree, this is vital. If partner expects sound preempts it is unwise to preempt on most of the hands where I think it is percentage to do so. I've played in partnerships where I simply did not preempt at all, 2♦ and up (minus 2NT) were not part of the system for me, because partner would always expect a king more than last time. A shame, but better than regular bickering.

[awm]

I suspect I'm more conservative than David here, and I'd also say that measuring the success of a preempt style is trickier than it may first appear -- frequent issues are pushing opponents into a making game that they wouldn't otherwise bid or helping them play the hand better with the information about your shape. Of course you can say "this game was cold so no swing" or "good play by declarer" but the reality is that the preempt helped them.

With that said, there are plenty of hands where I'd open 3♣ on six. The main things I look for are good suit quality (suit quality matters less than people think in general, but when bidding to the three-level on a six-card suit it does make a difference) and not a flat distribution (2236 and similar are exactly the hands likely to push opponents into a making game, whereas 6-4 in the minors is especially good for a three-level preempt). An outside card is actually not a bad thing; one thing opponents do a lot in pressure auctions is bid 3NT on one stopper hoping that they can hold up and cut transportation to the preempt suit, and the outside card will be a big disappointment to them in such cases. Something like ♠x ♥xx ♦Kxxx ♣KQJTxx would seem like an ideal 3♣ preempt, and I wouldn't require something this perfect either (except maybe at unfavourable).

[mw64ahw]

awm, on 2024-December-20, 03:02, said:

I suspect I'm more conservative than David here, and I'd also say that measuring the success of a preempt style is trickier than it may first appear -- frequent issues are pushing opponents into a making game that they wouldn't otherwise bid or helping them play the hand better with the information about your shape. Of course you can say "this game was cold so no swing" or "good play by declarer" but the reality is that the preempt helped them.

With that said, there are plenty of hands where I'd open 3♣ on six. The main things I look for are good suit quality (suit quality matters less than people think in general, but when bidding to the three-level on a six-card suit it does make a difference) and not a flat distribution (2236 and similar are exactly the hands likely to push opponents into a making game, whereas 6-4 in the minors is especially good for a three-level preempt). An outside card is actually not a bad thing; one thing opponents do a lot in pressure auctions is bid 3NT on one stopper hoping that they can hold up and cut transportation to the preempt suit, and the outside card will be a big disappointment to them in such cases. Something like ♠x ♥xx ♦Kxxx ♣KQJTxx would seem like an ideal 3♣ preempt, and I wouldn't require something this perfect either (except maybe at unfavourable).

I'm in the same camp, but do occasionally psyche with an over-weak hand when it feels like opponents slam could be on the cards.
On the question of outside features; do people use 3♦ to ask for one?

[Cyberyeti]

We treat first seat as an aggressive preempting seat (2:1 we're not preempting partner), we do not have a natural weak 2♦. We do open 3m particularly NV/V on 6 regularly in first.

Our preempts are much more classical in 2nd.

[paulg]

I was running a training session for aspiring internationals and one of our guest speakers (an international player, coach and NPC) said that every expert he knew would open 3♣ at favourable vulnerability on:

♠x x
♥x x
♦x x x
♣J x x x x x

This is not how he, nor I, were taught but is a sign where the world game is.

[DavidKok]

That's a funny hand because if the suit were diamonds the ACBL has a (range) stipulation on opening 2♦ but not 3♦.

Personally I think people are taking the "vulnerability is important so at favourable first and third anything goes" a bit too far, and the same argument not far enough at other seats and vulnerabilities. But I agree that this style is a not infrequent encounter.

[jdiana]

I've done it, of course, because 2♣ is strong. I couldn't say how successful it's been. There's a difference for me between first and second seat - I'm more aggressive in first seat, more disciplined in second. So much more likely to open 3♣ with a 6-card suit in first seat NV.

[pescetom]

mw64ahw, on 2024-December-20, 04:00, said:

On the question of outside features; do people use 3♦ to ask for one?

With one partner I used to play such a convention (attributed to Bob Hamman, although I don't have a source for that):

3♦ Asks for stopper, opening strength: 3♥/3♠ = stopper in suit, 3NT = stopper in ♦, 4♣ = no stopper
3♥/3♠ Ask for support in major, opening strength: 3NT = 2 card with high honour, 4♣ = no support, 4♦ = 3 card with no high honour, 4♥/4♠ = 3 card with high honour
3NT Signoff
4♣ Interdictive, opening strength: Pass/5♣
4♦ RKCB(♣), slam interest: RKCB replies in Kickback

Same over a 3♦ opening but without the stopper ask.

Another partner found that too much memory load but could remember:

3♦ Asks for feature, opening strength: 3♥/♠ = stopper in suit, 3NT = good ♣ (6+ tricks opposite Hx), 4♣ = no feature, 4♦ = max with 4 card diamonds

P.S. Thinking about it, a small improvement to both might be that 3♣-3♦;3♥ shows a stopper in ♥ or ♦: now 3♠ asks for ♦ (3N = yes, 4♣ = no) and 3NT asks for ♥ (pass = yes, 4♣ = no).

[mw64ahw]

pescetom, on 2024-December-20, 10:15, said:

With one partner I used to play such a convention (attributed to Bob Hamman, although I don't have a source for that):

3♦ Asks for stopper, opening strength: 3♥/3♠ = stopper in suit, 3NT = stopper in ♦, 4♣ = no stopper
3♥/3♠ Ask for support in major, opening strength: 3NT = 2 card with high honour, 4♣ = no support, 4♦ = 3 card with no high honour, 4♥/4♠ = 3 card with high honour
3NT Signoff
4♣ Interdictive, opening strength: Pass/5♣
4♦ RKCB(♣), slam interest: RKCB replies in Kickback

Same over a 3♦ opening but without the stopper ask.

Another partner found that too much memory load but could remember:

3♦ Asks for feature, opening strength: 3♥/♠ = stopper in suit, 3NT = good ♣ (6+ tricks opposite Hx), 4♣ = no feature, 4♦ = max with 4 card diamonds

P.S. Thinking about it, a small improvement to both might be that 3♣-3♦;3♥ shows a stopper in a red suit: now 3♠ asks for ♦ (3N = yes, 4♣ = no) and 3NT asks for ♥ (pass = yes, 4♣ = no).

Thanks - now to adapt to a 2N (some pre-empt) overcall.

[jillybean]

The British style is fine, but there should be no shock factor for your partner.
This raised my eyebrows the other day.

---

I've been of the belief that you see this from the young yahoos terrorizing the folks at the club, how times have changed.

[paulg]

mw64ahw, on 2024-December-20, 04:00, said:

On the question of outside features; do people use 3♦ to ask for one?

As you might expect of someone who is also concerned about 'inside' features, it is popular to play 3♦ asking for a 3-card major.

[Zelandakh]

mike777, on 2024-December-19, 17:07, said:

Have you ever opened a weak 3C NV in first or second seat on a 6 card suit?
If so, how have your results been? Lessons learned?

I do it all the time in 1st if the hand is weak enough (Edit: an example from the last month I was slightly ashamed of is 9 QT T863 A87542) and results tend to be positive overall, though my partner had a fairly steep learning curve at first due to the many more difficult decisions this leads to. The lesson learnt is that most club and social players are far too passive in their 1st seat preempting style.

[HardVector]

You really need to be careful with 3 level preempts in 1st/2nd seat. Keep in mind that partner could have anything. If you open 3c with complete trash (or even just a trashy club suit) and hear p-3n from partner, have you done a good job? Should you pull with trash only to find out that 3n actually was the right spot? Should you leave it in and watch your partner get killed?

Discipline.

Now, if it's 3rd seat non-vul, the gloves are off and you can get away with murder. Your partner is not going to bid 3n and you are going to make it rough on the opponents. My most ridiculous 3c open I've made happened in 3rd seat non-vul and looked like xx-xxx-Jxxxx-Qxxx. This was in a live game and I got a tell from my LHO that they had a moose, this was the only reason I bid 3c. The seat you are in is critical in how aggressive you should be.

[jillybean]

I have ♣KQx to bid 3nt opposite my partner's 3♣ preempt

[Zelandakh]

HardVector, on 2024-December-20, 14:34, said:

You really need to be careful with 3 level preempts in 1st/2nd seat.

In second seat, sure. But in first seat you are laying 2:1 odds that the hand belongs to the opponents. You should be preempting at Green here almost as aggressively as in third seat. If you call your 3rd seat preempts a 10, 1st seat NV is more or less a 9.

HardVector, on 2024-December-20, 14:34, said:

My most ridiculous 3c open I've made happened in 3rd seat non-vul and looked like xx-xxx-Jxxxx-Qxxx.

Strangely I don't like 3♣ on this hand at all. I would certainly consider quite a few calls here - Pass, 1♦, 1NT, 2♣, 2NT and 3♦ spring immediately to mind - and the one I actually choose on any given hand will most likely vary according to the opps and SotM as well as some system concerns, with 1NT being the one I'll probably pick as default.

[HardVector]

Zelandakh, on 2024-December-20, 15:25, said:

Strangely I don't like 3♣ on this hand at all. I would certainly consider quite a few calls here - Pass, 1♦, 1NT, 2♣, 2NT and 3♦ spring immediately to mind - and the one I actually choose on any given hand will most likely vary according to the opps and SotM as well as some system concerns, with 1NT being the one I'll probably pick as default.

Did you read the part where I got a tell?

[Zelandakh]

HardVector, on 2024-December-20, 15:34, said:

Did you read the part where I got a tell?

You don't really need a tell. If you hold this hand in 3rd then you know the opps are making game and possibly slam.