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Who's fault? Robot bid 7d after 2c-2d-3d

#1 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2025-February-12, 15:37



6 was rock solid but 7 was not makeable, and I lost 11.9 IMP as a result.

I didn't open 2NT because of my unstopped , and the robot pushed me to die without even checking all 5 keycards were held.
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#2 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2025-February-12, 15:44

7 is ridiculous, of course, and comfortably the worst bid, but those that play with the robot quickly learn it will almost always jump to slam when it has values and you show a strong one-suited hand as you did. (Usually an immediate 6NT when it doesn't have a fit).

But I don't understand the appeal of emphasising the diamonds to begin with - the only reason I might not open 2NT is if I thought it was a little too strong, in which case I'd open 2 - 2 - 2NT instead.
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#3 User is offline   HardVector 

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Posted 2025-February-12, 23:23

You asked who's fault, it's your fault. 2c followed by 3 of a minor show a very different hand than what you had. Once you misdescribe your hand, you are responsible for every bad decision your partner makes as a result.
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#4 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2025-February-13, 00:19

View PostHardVector, on 2025-February-12, 23:23, said:

You asked who's fault, it's your fault. 2c followed by 3 of a minor show a very different hand than what you had. Once you misdescribe your hand, you are responsible for every bad decision your partner makes as a result.

Yep - the clue is 23+ total points plus you need to know your notrump ladder by rote and bid accordingly.



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#5 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2025-February-13, 10:38

View Postsmerriman, on 2025-February-12, 15:44, said:

7 is ridiculous, of course, and comfortably the worst bid, but those that play with the robot quickly learn it will almost always jump to slam when it has values and you show a strong one-suited hand as you did. (Usually an immediate 6NT when it doesn't have a fit).

But I don't understand the appeal of emphasising the diamonds to begin with - the only reason I might not open 2NT is if I thought it was a little too strong, in which case I'd open 2 - 2 - 2NT instead.

Doesn't a 1NT opening require 3 suits stopped, and a 2NT or natural 3NT opening all suits stopped?
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#6 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2025-February-13, 11:03

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2025-February-13, 10:38, said:

Doesn't a 1NT opening require 3 suits stopped, and a 2NT or natural 3NT opening all suits stopped?

Maybe old-school, but what's your definition of a stop Txxx?
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#7 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted 2025-February-13, 11:22

View Postmw64ahw, on 2025-February-13, 11:03, said:

Maybe old-school, but what's your definition of a stop Txxx?

I will say that as partially stopped - my main concern is the doubleton containing xx, especially if it is a major suit.

I don't want opening 2NT holding xx, partner raising to 3NT with xxx and get set immediately on the first 5 tricks.
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#8 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2025-February-13, 11:59

 mikl_plkcc, on 2025-February-13, 10:38, said:

Doesn't a 1NT opening require 3 suits stopped, and a 2NT or natural 3NT opening all suits stopped?

No, absolutely not. A NT opening requires a balanced hand, nothing more. I believe stoppers got dropped as a requirement over 50 years ago.
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#9 User is online   mw64ahw 

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Posted 2025-February-13, 12:07

View Postmikl_plkcc, on 2025-February-13, 11:22, said:

I will say that as partially stopped - my main concern is the doubleton containing xx, especially if it is a major suit.

I don't want opening 2NT holding xx, partner raising to 3NT with xxx and get set immediately on the first 5 tricks.

Do you know the probability of this flaw?
Do you know how the rest of the field will be bidding?

In your auction, responder could bid 3 and you still have the same issue for 3N if you're not comfortable playing in a Moysian, but you've lied about shape!
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#10 User is online   smerriman 

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Posted 2025-February-13, 12:27

 mikl_plkcc, on 2025-February-13, 11:22, said:

I don't want opening 2NT holding xx, partner raising to 3NT with xxx and get set immediately on the first 5 tricks.

I do. Most of the time partner will have a spade stopper. If they don't, they may break 4-4, or the person on lead doesn't have the long spades to lead, and in both cases we're likely to have 9 runnable tricks if we hold 25+ hcp in three suits alone. And if all that fails, sure, we go down, but everyone else goes down too. And a lot of those times, there wouldn't have been a better game contract in another suit anyway.

Meanwhile, every time we decide to open something else, we've messed up our auction big time, since there is no longer any way to show our shape and strength. Modern systems are designed to show balanced hands as balanced hands.
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#11 User is offline   jillybean 

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Posted 2025-February-13, 13:05

View Postsmerriman, on 2025-February-13, 11:59, said:

No, absolutely not. A NT opening requires a balanced hand, nothing more. I believe stoppers got dropped as a requirement over 50 years ago.

Just over 20 years ago I was taught 1nt balanced, never 2 doubletons, all suits stopped.
So much dead wood remains in this game, being taught as rules.

The definition of balanced has also shifted
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#12 User is online   thepossum 

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Posted Today, 01:45

I will partially defend OP against a GiB jump to grand without checking controls. Happens to all of us but that hand is not a 2C opening in diamonds -too many losers. Has happened to me when I did have the right hand

Been there
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#13 User is offline   mikl_plkcc 

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Posted Today, 09:34

View Postthepossum, on 2025-February-19, 01:45, said:

I will partially defend OP against a GiB jump to grand without checking controls. Happens to all of us but that hand is not a 2C opening in diamonds -too many losers. Has happened to me when I did have the right hand

Been there

This hand has 5 quick tricks and 21 HCPs, despite not containing 9.5 playing tricks. Why isn't it a 2C opening? Should I open a 2NT despite my unstopped suit?

I have played a lot of games where I defeated their simple NT auction just by a blind guess of leading my strongest major suit, especially . Cashing 5 tricks immediately is not uncommon against a 3NT when no suits have been shown, as the fact that they didn't open a major suggests that they were weak in majors.
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#14 User is offline   mycroft 

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Posted Today, 10:43

Given the choice between:
  • 2NT with an unstopped suit, and
  • 2 then 2NT showing a stronger balanced hand (with an unstopped suit), or
  • 2, then 3 showing a one-suiter in diamonds, the worst auction start in Standard systems (with a minimum, and only 5, comparatively garbage, diamonds)
I know what my "least lie" is.

"oh my they could cash 5 hearts against 3NT!" Sure, but "oh my they could cash AK against 5, and we still have at least one trump loser!" Or partner could have this hand. Or partner could have the hand where yes, they can cash 5 hearts against 3NT, but after 2NT, they'll transfer you to spades and play the cold 4. Or...

And yes, that last one would probably go 2-2; 3-3; but how do you slow down partner who's expecting *better than* your hand at minimum? 2NT has the benefit of bounding your hand at both ends; it might be "the slam-killer", but it won't be "5 off 1" (or "7 off 2" :-).
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