[pilun]

It's hard to achieve symmetry with balanced hands. Too many 4432s that want to end at the same point, likewise 5332s. Doh!
There is more to be gained by following Fibonacci to lower the endpoint.
We've decided to stick with unlimited balanced hand responses but they need compacting to give opener the space for a safe strength ask.
Previously we had 3S last shape with 3H non-zoom, which was not great.

These are our GF responses:
1H = spades, not flat
1S = hearts, not spades, not flat
1N = 6+Ds or 5+4 minors, no major
2C = flat with a major
2D = balanced, no major
2H = 3-suited, both minors
2S+ = 6+ clubs

There are alternatives, such as 1S = balanced or red suits. We've preferred to avoid multi-meaning bids.

Anyway, back to 2C which shows 12 hand shapes, a very good Fibonacci split.
One natural spread is S+m, H+m, both, square. That's 4+4+2+2. No good.

With 4 at the end, 1-1-1-1 is just as good as 2-1-1 so the aim is 5-3-1-1-1-1
Fine if we move 4-3-3-3 to 2H, then take a hand from H+m to get

2H = spades, not hearts (5)
2S = hearts & a minor (3) drop one
2N = 4-4-2-3
3C = 4-4-3-2 (better not to bid 2NT with both of these to avoid wrong-siding)
3D = 2-4-4-3, the swapped out shape
3H+ = 3-4-3-3

In all streams, the zooming shape is 3H, which is perfect (3H = 5 or 6, 3S = 7, 3NT = 8, 4C = 9, resurrection strength)
3D non-zoom is okay, since opener still gets a choice of two asks (SPs or Kontrols for us). KK uses +1 as a weak kontrol ask.

2H = S ________________________
2S = H _____________ ..........|
2N = 4-4-2-3 ......| ........S & D _________
3C = 4-4-3-2 ... 3-4-4-2 ... 4-2-3-4 .......|
3D = 2-4-4-3 ... 2-4-3-4 ... 4-3-2-4 ... 4-2-4-3
3H+ = 3-4-3-3 .. 3-4-2-4 ... 4-3-3-3 ... 4-3-4-2

Not such a memory strain:
"spades, not hearts - hearts & a minor - both high - both low - reds high - square hearts"

The 10 balanced shapes with no major are problematic. 10 is a bad Fibonacci number. We dropped the 4-4 minor hands to get

2D - 2H
2S = 5 diamonds
2N = square
3C = 2-3-3-5
3D = 3-2-3-5
3H+ = 3-3-2-5

This is a perfect Fibonacci structure, three streams ending at 3H zooming. It's also symmetric looking.
What about 4-4 minors?

We put them in 2H, which simply becomes "both minors" so

2H - 2S
2N = 4 spades
3C = balanced (2 shapes)
3D = 1-4-4-4
3H = 0-4-4-5
3S = 0-4-5-4
3N = 0-5-4-4

The 3-suiters are pleasantly symmetric, with 3C a neat pivot. (With 5440s, we resolve "canape first")



One problem with unlimited balanced hands is the need for opener to go to (near) resolution in case responder has a big hand.
We can't really have 1C - 2D - 3NT. Have to ask once, unless 3NT is VERY specific.
With shape half-known, we use Step +1 as "Forget the residue, show SPs."

[awm]

It seems like with 5M-(332) you are responding 1M and then resolving at 2♠+, whereas you use 2♠+ to show 6+m one-suited, so you're sort of gaining a step on the one-suited minor hands. If you put 5m-(332) into 1NT (diamonds) or 2♠+ (clubs) then the resolution becomes more symmetric and you gain a step on the balanced hands (which now exclude 5m-(332)). Since you're playing GF responses and relay I don't think there's a big advantage to treating 5m-(332) as balanced.

[straube]

Are you familiar with the Balanced Hand Principle in which you want to have the balanced hand as relay captain opposite an unbalanced hand? If you put your balanced hands into low responses (ideally 1D but 1H or 1S has some utilit) you can then reverse relay. I.e. 1C-1H-2C now shows some shapely hand. Otherwise, you are likely losinga lot of sequences or relay breaks.


You could use IMprecision responses (which awm co-designed) in which 1H is spades including balanced hands with spades, 1S is diamonds or balanced hands with or.without four hearts. Then you could reverse relay at least sometimes.

[pilun]

awm, on 2025-April-12, 02:19, said:

It seems like with 5M-(332) you are responding 1M and then resolving at 2♠+, whereas you use 2♠+ to show 6+m one-suited, so you're sort of gaining a step on the one-suited minor hands. If you put 5m-(332) into 1NT (diamonds) or 2♠+ (clubs) then the resolution becomes more symmetric and you gain a step on the balanced hands (which now exclude 5m-(332)). Since you're playing GF responses and relay I don't think there's a big advantage to treating 5m-(332) as balanced.

We like minor 1-suiters to be 6+ so that the 6m331s come out at 3D, not 3H.
Also, so that 7m321s are resolved to find the 5-3 major fit. (The ambiguity doesn't matter with 7M321.)
Also, 1C - 1NT to show diamonds is not great because of wrong-siding 3NT. Removing 5D332 reduces that cost.

Regarding symmetry for the whole system, we take a holistic approach.
2C & 2D openings show 6 if one suited. (Can be 5-4 with the other minor)
1D/H/S show the major hands, 4+.
1H - 1S is GIR. As such, we wanted opener's jumps to be 1-suited and 6+.
Thus 5M332s would rebid 2C as balanced. (We don't want opener's 3-5-3-2 11 count to bid 3D directly over responder's 11 count.)

Removing 5m332 from balanced means we could throw all flat hands into 2C, albeit with 3 over the top.
That would allow 2C as 8-11, 2D as 12+ for instance.
The contention is that the structure above negates the need to split range early on.

[pilun]

straube, on 2025-April-12, 07:16, said:

Are you familiar with the Balanced Hand Principle in which you want to have the balanced hand as relay captain opposite an unbalanced hand? If you put your balanced hands into low responses (ideally 1D but 1H or 1S has some utilit) you can then reverse relay. I.e. 1C-1H-2C now shows some shapely hand. Otherwise, you are likely losinga lot of sequences or relay breaks.


You could use IMprecision responses (which awm co-designed) in which 1H is spades including balanced hands with spades, 1S is diamonds or balanced hands with or.without four hearts. Then you could reverse relay at least sometimes.

Reverse relay always seemed too much of a chore for something rarely used. For us, an early chainbreak by opener is a natural minimum, with shortage in pd's suit.
We get some of the shapely hands to describe over 1C - 2C/D. 3x by opener is shortage and a minimum, typically a 5431/4441. (6M331 might show shortage then remove 3NT to 4M to show that hand) 1C - 2C - 2H/S are natural, showing doubts about strain. That is, the sort of hand that would relay out and be none the wiser, typically a decent 5-carder with a small doubleton outside, when a 5-2 or 4-3 major game could be better.