[smerriman]

Hmm.. tricky.. I think I'd:

1♦ - 1♠
2♥ - 3♠ (strong 6+)
4♣ (hopefully interpreted as natural, would raise / RKC with spades) - 4♥ (didn't raise hearts, so must be suggesting a 4-3 fit, which is probably better than the 7-0)..

[hrothgar]

So, I play very sound reverses and even here I am tempted by 2!H

I might well, bid 2!H, but today I am feeling pessimistic and don't like the 1!S bid so I will rebid 2!C

1!D - 1!S
2!C - 2!H
3!H - 3!S
3N - 4!S

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2025-April-04, 13:58, said:

---

So the hand turns out to be very simple after all of the above confusion.

1d-1s
2h-3s
3nt-p

3s=6+ gf

[mw64ahw]

jillybean, on 2025-April-04, 09:44, said:

1D 1S 2H 2S 3C 4C

1D 1S 2C 2H*

Why would responder raise to 4♣ with only 3 on the 3rd shown suit, surely 3N makes more sense. I prefer 3♠ as responders 2nd bid. A ♣ slam feels like low probability.

My Esoteric Unbalanced♦ makes placing the contract and level clear for responder.
1♦ - 1♠ GI
2♣ (444x) - 2♥ GF 13-14hcp
2♠ short ♠ - 2N <describe>
.. 3♣ ♠ honour, 3♦ asks
.. 3♦ 5♦
.. 3♥ 5♣
.. 3♠ x
Now the 3♦ response indicates a 3NT contract, but on another day you could be slamming in a suit

[jillybean]

smerriman, on 2025-April-04, 12:59, said:

Getting out at the 3 level isn't really related to whether the reverse shows slightly less values or not. mikeh's whole primer thread - where he assumed 18+, though said it also applied to weaker ranges - is founded on the fact that responder will be bidding a forcing 2♠ even with a subminimum with 5 spades. Even 18 may not be enough to force to game opposite Kxxxx and out in spades (or whatever the weakest hand you'll respond with is).

And if partner can "use their judgement" and pass, that's why opener has to do something else with extras when they do want to force.

I have never played a 16+ reverse. We are not rebidding 2S with a subminimum. With that hand we'd use leb where responder has stretched to bid over 1C. (This now has me wondering what the responses are playing t-walsh.)

What sort of hand would break a leb sequence to force game?

[jillybean]

---

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2025-April-04, 14:30, said:

So the hand turns out to be very simple after all of the above confusion.

There was even more confusion at my table.

[smerriman]

jillybean, on 2025-April-04, 18:10, said:

I have never played a 16+ reverse. We are not rebidding 2S with a subminimum. With that hand we'd use leb where responder has stretched to bid over 1C.

Neither, but mikeh's thread was about 18+ reverses, and is definitely a good way to play. If you're bidding leb, you'll miss out on most 5-3 games, playing in a partscore in the wrong suit instead.

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2025-April-04, 09:44, said:

1D 1S 2H 2S 3C 4C

1D 1S 2C 2H*

Both these auctions could be very complicated.
Type of auctions that having good written agreements would be ideal.

In practice the type of auctions people can easily disagree on without detailed discussions.

[mikeh]

Late to the thread

I would have bid 2C. Doesn’t anyone listen to auctions anymore? Nobody notice that we have a void in partner’s suit? That such a void is a negative valuation factor?

My view of reverses has evolved since I wrote the pinned article on reverses…I will reverse with lesser hands than I used to require but I think a reverse here is misguided.

2C seems normal. If partner were to bid 2D, I have an easy 2H bid which shows 0454 with about 17 hcp. Hey…isn’t that what I have? Weird, isn’t it? To be able to have partner know our hand so well at the level of 2H. Anyone would think…these guys know how to bid.

Meanwhile, back in the world of a reverse, after 1D 1 S 2H 2S, do I bid 3C to show my pattern or do I bid 2 N? I think I have to bid 3C…2N sounds like a stronger hand than I hold (even ‘light’ reversers usually know enough to downgrade a misfit) but 3C may endplay partner. What happens if he bids 3D? Is that forcing?


Oh, jb? 1D 1S 2H 2S is unlimited…at both ends. Lebensohl or ingberman (similar but better) doesn’t apply. 2S says absolutely nothing about strength in traditional theory the 2h bid promises another bid. It’s common to reverse with as little as 16. AQx AJxx KQxxx x is a clear reverse. Note that x AJxx KQxxx AQx is not a reverse. At least, not imo.

Simply counting hcp is a foolish way to look at bridge judgement. Fit, spot cards, rebid issues and so on are vital components.

The given hand starts off great but the 1S response, while hardly a surprise, is no reason to upgrade…I rarely downgrade but this is one where the void and the lack, for now, of a trump suit prompts me to make a heavy 2C bid.

Put it another way…try constructing a hand for partner where he should pass 2C. Now see if you can find one on which game is good. The best I could do is a modest 5413, but that can’t happen in my partnerships because we use Meckwell….that responding hand would bid 2H and I’d bid 4H.

[mw64ahw]

mikeh, on 2025-April-04, 23:55, said:

2C seems normal. If partner were to bid 2D, I have an easy 2H bid which shows 0454 with about 17 hcp. Hey…isn't that what I have? Weird, isn't it? To be able to have partner know our hand so well at the level of 2H. Anyone would think…

Not quite convinced.
If responder has say 5404 weak or invitational plus then you are in danger of missing the ♥ fit. 2♥ provides both strength and some shape while 2♣ is potentially misleading with regards to strength. So after
1♦-1♠-2♣
Pass 4♥ may make
3♣ now does 3♥ ask for a stopper for 3N if you are the partner expecting opener to be say 2254/1255.
4♣ maybe you are in the wrong game/slam

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2025-April-04, 23:55, said:

Oh, jb? 1D 1S 2H 2S is unlimited…at both ends. Lebensohl or ingberman (similar but better) doesn’t apply. 2S says absolutely nothing about strength in traditional theory the 2h bid promises another bid. It’s common to reverse with as little as 16. AQx AJxx KQxxx x is a clear reverse. Note that x AJxx KQxxx AQx is not a reverse. At least, not imo.

I have to reread the reverse thread, again and perhaps you could update it. It is 18 years old.

I said upthread after an auction starting 1C 1S 2H, we would use 2N leb. When does Leb/Ingb over reverses apply?
I'm seeing how readily I forget the more complex sequences when not playing, I hope it comes back when/if I do get to play again.