[akwoo]

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7 board Swiss, opening day of the Grand National Teams, Flight B.

Unfortunately, I have UI. Partner tried to make an opening bid out of turn but was stopped by the opponents before the bid left the box. And I mean a bid, not a pass (or double or redouble). I don't know for certain what it was, but given the subsequent overcall it was probably 1♠.

Here's the question: is there a logical alternative to going to game? I thought that there is, and did not drive to game, and lost a bunch of IMPs. Polling on the other site is running 33-0 in favor of going to game in some way. (I wanted that data before asking here.) Then again, I don't trust the other site's polling to be meaningful for flight B.

[smerriman]

Perhaps there are different routes to game where the UI might affect your choice, but I can't imagine even contemplating stopping in 3♠.

(What was 3♣?)

[jillybean]

Ooof, not a good way to start the session, it sucks being ethical. Some would say, bid your hand, let the TD sort it out.
What is your overcall style? What was 3♣?

The the TD should (must) be called when "Partner tried to make an opening bid out of turn but was stopped by the opponents before the bid left the box."

[Huibertus]

I can't imagine there will be anybody selling out below game at any decent level of play. I assume that even at beginners levels more than half of the field will bid 4♠.

[Cyberyeti]

The obvious question, how crap can your overcalls be ?

[DavidKok]

That's not the right question at all.

[Cyberyeti]

DavidKok, on 2025-July-25, 03:17, said:

That's not the right question at all.

It is, I'm probably making a slam try opposite one of my overcalls

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-July-25, 03:35, said:

It is, I'm probably making a slam try opposite one of my overcalls

This is not an obvious game opposite one of mine.

[mycroft]

To me, the options are 4♠ or 4♣ (and the UI suggests looking for slam/setting a force).

And I overcall on crap, if I have the boss suit (and am interested in competing) or if I have a suit-worth-leading. Either of those cases, either 4♠ is cold, or 5♣ is.

Worst case, partner has something like KJTxx Kxx and a finessable club honour. Yeah, these things happen. With more, *or less*, 4♠ is right.

As a known director, I'm 100% calling the director (back, if she's not still around) and bidding 4♠. "I know I have UI, I am clearly about to make a call DS by the UI, I still think it's The Call, and am leaving it in your hands" being the unspoken explanation.

Question, did you have enough UI that you knew it was 1♠, and not 2♠?

[mikeh]

My own approach in UI cases is close to what jb suggested.

Doing my best to be objective, but with no pretence that I’m infallible in doing so, I try to judge how clear my contemplated action would be in the absence of the UI. Having done my best in that regard, if I think that there are two or more choices and that it’s not very clear which is best (absent UI) then I choose something not suggested by the UI.

If, otoh, I consider an action to be clear, I take it.

Against expert opponents I let them decide whether to call the TD. They know their rights and I’d hope that they think of me as ethical. Should the TD be called, I’ll live with the result.

Against non-experts, I’d either call the TD or explain to the opps that I’m aware of the UI and that they should consider calling the TD because this can be a tricky situation and they’re entitled to protection. The less experienced the opps or the more I think they may feel intimidated by my partner and me, the more likely I am to call the TD.

Here, I saw the hand and valued it before I read about the UI, a luxury unavailable to the OP. It’s 100% clear that you are bidding game. This is imps. I don’t care how light partner could be….opposite the vast majority of light overcalls game will range from ‘having play’ to being cold.

Slam isn’t impossible. AJ10xx Axx xxx xx makes for an excellent slam on the auction.

I’d bid 4C and keycard over a 4H response.

However, after the UI, I’d just bid 4S. Why? Because while I am certain that I’d bid 4C absent the UI, there’s no doubt that it’s an aggressive move. While to me 4C is standout, I’m not at all sure that’s it’s quite so clear at the flight B level…maybe 70-30. And it’s obviously made virtually bullet-proof by the UI. So I’d not do it if I were n the OP’s position. Against experts, I’d do it anyway, but I would do so knowing that a TD might later roll back a successful slam auction.

UI often creates an ethical minefield but imo it’s very important that one not always choose an action that one believes is NOT what one would have chosen absent the UI. If the action you take is as clear as you think it to be, your conscience is clear…just be sure to accept a TD call and ruling with good grace.

Here, the OP is to be commended for trying to do the right thing and, I’m guessing, spent some time visualizing improbable hands where game isn’t good and then allowed that to persuade him that not forcing to game was the ethical choice.

I have to add: I literally can’t think of a way to invite game! 3S is merely a competitive raise and carries no invitational meaning. Psrtner is allowed to bid but he’s not being encouraged to bid. So even if I thought that game could be poor, I simply have no way not to bid game. 3S is horrifically bad, imo…no reasonable player would choose that in the absence of UI.

[HardVector]

You are playing IMPs. You have a superior fit, shortness in the opponents suit, and a source of tricks. I don't understand anything BUT bidding game. As a matter of fact (even without the UI), I would cuebid 4c to indicate a mild interest in exploring slam. At MPs, I can see maybe stopping in 3, but not at IMPs.

As far as the ethical question goes, bid what you think is right and make the opponents call the director. Very often, if it's close, they will poll the room to determine if what you did was reasonable.

[WasWinM]

I admire your honest restraint.
It’s simple to imagine a simple overcall that has no chance for game. kJ10xxx, xxx, xx, Ax for example

[Cyberyeti]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-25, 11:33, said:

I admire your honest restraint.
It’s simple to imagine a simple overcall that has no chance for game. kJ10xxx, xxx, xx, Ax for example

That's not no chance, they're quite likely to lead a club and 3 diamonds might stand up or the ruff might be with ♠A. Or opener could have ♥AK tight and ♠A. That would be a 2♠ overcall for us anyway

[pescetom]

I agree 100% with mycroft.
Without the UI I would bid 4♣, with it I bid 4♠ and call TD.


I'm worried about what Jillybean's overcall that does not merit game at IMPs vulnerable might be

[DavidKok]

My overcalls are very aggressive. This hand opposite is not safe for game. However, that's not the right question: we don't have the tools to investigate, and may not want to leak that information in the first place. That's why the overcall strength agreement doesn't matter that much - even if we decide that game is only 'with the odds' rather than 'safe', or that 'slam is in the picture', there's not too much we can do about it on this start. The odds are also against us to begin with - slam is quite remote even if you demand opening strength for an overcall (also count the HCP, was that 3♣ made on a 3-count? You may wish to inquire about the range). At the other end of the range, I think little good will come of inviting. Even if partner has a minimum we might be cold for game, so a rejected invite isn't going to teach us much. And a game blast beats an accepted invite.

More importantly though, we're not the only two in this auction. Thinking of the slam try, especially if you're picturing partner with some aces and nothing wasted in clubs, the chance that the opponents bid again is considerable. We should be anticipating further competition, not making a strength-showing game try or force.

I think the expert bid is a 4♦ fitbid, showing 4(+)♠, 5(+)♦ and the playing strength for 4♠. This helps partner decide what to do in case they bid 5♣ - with a bunch of diamonds, bid 5-over-5. With short diamonds, double or pass, and either cash some top spade(s) or lead a diamond. With this many honours in diamonds our defensive strength is highly contingent on neither opponent being short, so I feel it is important to inform partner of this feature.

My thoughts on how to deal with the UI agree with Kathryn, mycroft and mikeh. I think with the UI I would still bid 4♦ as it's such a standout call, but also call for the TD.

[WasWinM]

 Cyberyeti, on 2025-July-25, 13:35, said:

That's not no chance, they're quite likely to lead a club and 3 diamonds might stand up or the ruff might be with ♠A. Or opener could have ♥AK tight and ♠A. That would be a 2♠ overcall for us anyway

Do you base your bidding on lucky lesds?

[jillybean]

I am hoping it is a good sign that Alex has not responded. He must still be in the GNT battle.

[akwoo]

The hand where game isn't good is AKxxx xxx xx xxx (or, for that matter, KQJ in clubs).

There is a way to possibly invite - make a negative double, and if partner bids 3 of a red suit, bid 3♠.

This is my light opening Precision partnership, so basically any hand that would've opened 2♠ would also have made a jump overcall of 2♠. I'm sure you could construct an exception, but it's a narrow window.

In case anyone is still wondering, 3♣ is the usual weak raise in competition.

And we got knocked out today.

[Cyberyeti]

WasWinM, on 2025-July-25, 16:17, said:

Do you base your bidding on lucky lesds?

Not really, but opps often lead the suit they've bid and raised

[jillybean]

Cyberyeti, on 2025-July-26, 08:10, said:

Not really, but opps often lead the suit they've bid and raised

lol