[JeffMorrow]

My partner and I did not have a good day today, and during the autopsy, we identified a number of issues where we miscommunicated at the table and disagreed about how to prevent future miscommunications. But, to avoid making this thread incoherent, I shall try to keep this thread restricted to one issue, namely the range of “constructive” non-balancing overcalls and direct takeout doubles. So the background is that she makes (and wants me to make) overcalls on hands that I feel are too weak to warrant a possibly constructive bid. Furthermore, she also treats overcalls as unlimited: her overcalls could in principle have 30 hcp.

Let’s start with this hand. We play 2/1 gf with relatively few gadgets. Opponents were playing a natural bidding system. My partner dealt and passed. My RHO opened with 1C. I held

♠732
♥AK753
♦1064
♣J6

I passed. During the autopsy, my partner asked why had I not overcalled 1H. My answer was that the suit has only 5 cards and is topped with only 2 honors; the hand is flat and has only 7 working points (J little in their suit is worthless in my opinion), and the hand has fewer than expected intermediates.

Now, i concede that I am cautious in making overcalls. And I agree that in principle this hand is at least close to being worth an overcall at the 1-level. For example, I would agree that bidding 1H over 1C on

♠72
♥AK1053
♦Q964
♣76

will suggest a good lead and disrupt their auction slightly without being likely yo trigger a penalty double. There is shape. Q10 in diamonds may be worth something. A third honor in hearts. Not that different from my actual hand, but one that makes me more comfortable entering the auction opposite a passing partner.

So, my only question on this issue is whether it a mistake not to overcall on the actual hand, or is this more a matter of style.

Given how weak a hand my partner will overcall on, I think it is really important to limit the range of an overcall. My partner does not agree and wants overcalls to be unlimited. So this takes us to the second hand.

Favorable vulnerability for us. Partner dealt and passed, and RHO opened 1D. This time I held

♠AQJ973
♥K8
♦43
♣KQ10

I doubled, planning to bid spades over any response from partner to show a hand too strong for an overcall. Then LHO preempted at 2H, partner passed as did RHO. I bid 2S as planned. All pass. 10 tricks were cold, and almost every table bid 4S. Of course, we were the only table that got interference, but we were also the only table where those with my hand did not overcall. So, naturally my partner wanted to know why I had doubled rather than overcalled.

So, several questions. First, what I was taught was that an overcall is limited, and the way to show a hand too strong for an overcall is first to make a takeout double and then bid your suit. Is that still standard? If not, how do you show a hand too strong for an overcall.

Second question. Did I err in treating this hand as too strong for an overcall?

Last question. Given that I did choose the double, was my 2S bid too passive?

[DavidKok]

JeffMorrow, on 2025-September-08, 22:30, said:

Let’s start with this hand.
[...]
My RHO opened with 1C. I held

♠732
♥AK753
♦1064
♣J6

I passed.
[...]
So, my only question on this issue is whether it a mistake not to overcall on the actual hand, or is this more a matter of style.

This is a matter of partnership style. I would definitely overcall, but I know people who wouldn't. In general I really want to get my shape in, and will bid aggressively to get this across.
In pickup partnerships one question I always ask is "Nobody vulnerable, second seat, you are dealt AQ9xx, xx, xxx, xxx and RHO opens a 2+ 1♣. What do you do, and what is the minimum change I need to make to the hand to get a different answer?". This elicits a lot of different responses, and tells me more about partner's style than most gadget agreements would. This hand is at the edge of being a controversial 1♠ overcall these days, and I consider your hand a clear 1♥ overcall. However, this is subject to partnership style.
In addition, the requirements for overcalls shift naturally with the seating, vulnerability, opening, and the amount of space you can take away. In general this is complicated and subjective, but do keep in mind a lot of factors play a role here.

JeffMorrow, on 2025-September-08, 22:30, said:

Given how weak a hand my partner will overcall on, I think it is really important to limit the range of an overcall. My partner does not agree and wants overcalls to be unlimited. So this takes us to the second hand.

Favorable vulnerability for us. Partner dealt and passed, and RHO opened 1D. This time I held

♠AQJ973
♥K8
♦43
♣KQ10

I doubled, planning to bid spades over any response from partner to show a hand too strong for an overcall.
[...]
So, several questions. First, what I was taught was that an overcall is limited, and the way to show a hand too strong for an overcall is first to make a takeout double and then bid your suit. Is that still standard? If not, how do you show a hand too strong for an overcall.

You are correct. In standard, overcalling shows a limited hand - for me up to a good 17-count or so (again, stretching the range to show shape - but again it's complicated!). With stronger hands you double-then-bid. Sometimes this backfires, but then again so can everything else.

JeffMorrow, on 2025-September-08, 22:30, said:

Second question. Did I err in treating this hand as too strong for an overcall?

I would have bid 1♠, but I think your hand is close either way. I don't mind treating this as double-then-bid, despite this nominally showing approximately 18+ (or a nice 17) for me. The hand is worth several upgrades compared to its hcp count. Just do keep in mind that if partners has a lot of hearts it's a partial misfit, and if partner doesn't have a lot of hearts or diamonds the opponents are likely about to push the bidding to 3♦, 3♥, 4♦ or 4♥ before we can bid again.

JeffMorrow, on 2025-September-08, 22:30, said:

Last question. Given that I did choose the double, was my 2S bid too passive?

No, it is perfectly right.

[P_Marlowe]

Hi,

#1 The first hand is a 1H overcall, you want a heart lead, you want p to raise, to steal some space.
P is a passed hand.

#2 I believe in bidding my 5+ card major first instead of going via a T/O, I would do this with the
given hand as well, but it is certainly a valid option to go with a T/O first.
If p says, you would reach 4S after a direct overcall, he basically says, that he missed to raise
your overcall after the stronger variant.
A 3S bid instead of a 2S in your seq. basically tells p, to bid game, if he finds 1 useful trick
in his hand. Your hand needs more from p that 1 trick.

[shyams]

JeffMorrow, on 2025-September-08, 22:30, said:

♠732
♥AK753
♦1064
♣J6

I passed.

I would overcall 1♥. At MPs, I would do this 100% of the time, even with a pickup partner. At IMPs, I may worry that a pickup partner may overreach (esp. if we are vul); with a known partner, I would bid 1♥. "It's a bidder's game" is my defence if 1♥ backfires badly

JeffMorrow, on 2025-September-08, 22:30, said:

Favorable vulnerability for us. Partner dealt and passed, and RHO opened 1D. This time I held

♠AQJ973
♥K8
♦43
♣KQ10

I doubled, planning to bid spades over any response from partner to show a hand too strong for an overcall. Then LHO preempted at 2H, partner passed as did RHO. I bid 2S as planned. All pass. 10 tricks were cold, and almost every table bid 4S. Of course, we were the only table that got interference, but we were also the only table where those with my hand did not overcall. So, naturally my partner wanted to know why I had doubled rather than overcalled.

So, several questions. First, what I was taught was that an overcall is limited, and the way to show a hand too strong for an overcall is first to make a takeout double and then bid your suit. Is that still standard? If not, how do you show a hand too strong for an overcall.

Second question. Did I err in treating this hand as too strong for an overcall?

Last question. Given that I did choose the double, was my 2S bid too passive?

1. and 2. I would have overcalled 1♠, especially due to partner's pass in the first seat. To me, your choice of DBL feels wrong but then I am not an expert and I may well have wrong notions about hand valuations.
3. If I was told that my first round call was DBL, then I too would bid 2♠ now. IMO, your partner should have placed you with 17-19 HCPs for this bidding sequence (you actually have a very good 15). If your side missed game, it is likely that your partner was the cautious one on this board.

[mw64ahw]

JeffMorrow, on 2025-September-08, 22:30, said:

My partner dealt and passed. My RHO opened with 1C. I held

♠732
♥AK753
♦1064
♣J6

... My partner does not agree and wants overcalls to be unlimited

Two quick tricks and a 5-card suit is an overcall for me regardless of vulnerability. Partner could be just shy of an opener with good support; the partial being ours. At the worst it suggests a lead.

I have a strong preference for limited overalls and play The Overcall Structure which limits a variety of hand types in some cases more strictly than a standard approach.

JeffMorrow, on 2025-September-08, 22:30, said:

Favorable vulnerability for us. Partner dealt and passed, and RHO opened 1D. This time I held

♠AQJ973
♥K8
♦43
♣KQ10

I doubled, planning to bid spades over any response from partner to show a hand too strong for an overcall.

This one is too weak for a X and overcall, but on the cusp of an intermediate jump overcall. Otherwise 1♠ followed by a 2♠ rebid pushes them higher if they want to compete.

[awm]

I'd discuss with partner about double-then-bid; it seems like her expectations for this sequence are very different from the norm.

You really need a way to show a "stronger than normal overcall" so that you can get game (and even slam) decisions right; this is especially important if you plan to overcall fairly aggressively at the one level (which is otherwise a fine strategy; I'd overcall on your original hand with ♥AKxxx too). Of course the usual way to do this is double-then-bid (other agreements are possible of course).

[Cyberyeti]

I would overcall 2♥ on the first hand, but 1♥ is more normal

If you are going to start with a double, 2♠ is correct, I would have overcalled 1♠

[pescetom]

DavidKok, on 2025-September-09, 00:02, said:

This is a matter of partnership style. I would definitely overcall, but I know people who wouldn't. In general I really want to get my shape in, and will bid aggressively to get this across.

I too would overcall 1♥ on the OP hand, but there is a question (at least semantically) about whether we are really getting our shape in. I suggest we are showing a suit despite lack of shape, but AKxxx is a rose by any other name.

DavidKok, on 2025-September-09, 00:02, said:

In pickup partnerships one question I always ask is "Nobody vulnerable, second seat, you are dealt AQ9xx, xx, xxx, xxx and RHO opens a 2+ 1♣. What do you do, and what is the minimum change I need to make to the hand to get a different answer?". This elicits a lot of different responses, and tells me more about partner's style than most gadget agreements would. This hand is at the edge of being a controversial 1♠ overcall these days, and I consider your hand a clear 1♥ overcall. However, this is subject to partnership style.

I like your question. I would answer "Pass and the minimum change at MP is change 9 to T and add a singleton".
But I am playing in a more conservative country than you are.

[mikeh]

While it remains standard to have an upper limit for overcalls, with stronger hands starting with double, it’s a mistake to assign a rigid high card limit for the overcall.

It’s very important that anyone who doubles, planning to bid a suit, be ready to handle any foreseeable bids by partner. For example, with a long minor and, say, 1=2=4=6 shape, be very careful about doubling since you need to handle (1H) x (4H) 4S.

So, for me, I need a stronger hand to double 1M, when holding shortness in the other major, than I do when my suit is the other major. Doubling then spades can be a touch lighter than doubling then hearts.

As for 1H on 5332 shape with AK7xx in hearts and partner as a passed hand….and LHO unlimited..I think bidding is borderline, and with some partners I would pass even at mps. I’d always pass at imps.

To demonstrate how close I think this is, I’d overcall with AK109x and otherwise the same hand.

As for the spade hand, I’d bid 1S. This hand simply doesn’t measure up to double then bid. Change the heart holding from Kx to Ax and it would be a minimum double for me.

In terms of yiur partner’s style, I think overcalling on very strong hands….say 22+….is unplayable.

I have made an overcall on 19….I refuse to assign a number as the upper limit….the 19 count included a stiff K.

[WasWinM]

As to overcalls it’s helpful to think about the purposes of an overcall which are to indicate a lead or to compete for a partscore or find your side’s game.

At mps I would overcall 1H; at imps, I would sit and wish I had overcalled while partner blows a trick on opening lead.

[JeffMorrow]

Thank you all for your helpful responses.