[Ranmit]

My partner and I are thinking of a bidding system where we want to keep the 2D bid as showing 12-15 points, 4-4-4-1 / 5-4-4-0 / 5-4-3-1 hands (the 5-card suit, if any, can only be a minor).

Does any one have a response structure for this opening (or is willing to create one, as an intellectual/fun exercise )?

I know this is probably a bad setup, but it keeps the rest of our bids very clean, so even if we can get something that approximately works it would be great.

Thanks!

[DavidKok]

Sorry for being blunt: this strikes me as unplayable to the point of offsetting any possible system gains on all other openings. Any system with this opening can't win in the long run. However, it might well be a lot of fun to play!

It's important to consider the relative frequencies when partner opens 2♦. A quick simulation gives me

• 5440: 6%
  
• 4441: 17%
  
• 5431: 77%

Compared to the mini-Roman, which only has the first two types on my list, you've completely changed the nature of the bid (and quadrupled the frequency). I expect you will have a lot of problems untangling this hand type.

I have played a Jammer 2♣ opening a little bit, which is based on a Jammer 2♦, which is a weak 3-suited opening that claims to solve some of the problems of the mini-Roman. It's a stretch, but maybe there is something useful here. However, your opening being constructive, and not weak, makes it much more difficult.

Personally I would go one of two ways over your opening:

• Make 2♥ a game forcing relay, asking for a partial shape description. You can show 21 hand types at or below 3NT with standard relay approaches. Your opening contains 24 5431-type hands, 4 4441-type hands and 12 5440-type hands. If you give up on the 5440-type (pretend they are 4441) and conceal one feature (probably show the short suit and the 5-piece, so that it's 5(43)1) you've compressed this to 16 types, so you can even partially undo this compression and sometimes show the four card suit. This also allows all 2♠-and-up bids to be at most invitational, and they should probably be pass-or-correct with 2NT being a generic asking invite.
  
• Make suit bids of 2♥ and up (so 2♥ through 3♦) pass-or-correct, with 2NT as a strong forcing ask. 3♥ and up can be some rare game forcing hands, in theory you should be showing 2-suiters opposite as those have a high probability of finding a fit. This means you lose space on choice of game and slam decisions but can land in a playable 7(+)-card fit more often and more cheaply.

[steve2005]

Play Precision
Then your 2♦ bid will be exactly as you described but with shortness in diamonds. They use 11-15.
Standard Modern Precision or Santa Fe Precision has a very good write-up for it.
Playing with an unknown singleton with 5431 possible is unplayable.

[DavidKok]

Traditional Precision does employ such a 2♦ bid, but this comes with its own set of questions. The bid is generally a bit of a losing proposition: very rare (only ~0.5% of all hands) and doesn't win when it comes up. It also saddles you with the traditional Nebulous 1♦.
There are alternative modern approaches to Precision that shift these around. If you're looking for a complete system overhaul and want to play Precision, there are other options than the '4415 minus a card' 2♦ opening.

[Ranmit]

DavidKok, on 2025-October-01, 13:52, said:

It's important to consider the relative frequencies when partner opens 2♦. A quick simulation gives me

• 5440: 6%
  
• 4441: 17%
  
• 5431: 77%

Thank you! Though maybe I wasnt clear - in my setup if there is a 5-card suit, it can only be a minor. So the third distribution is only ~2x as likely as the second, and the first is much lower.

DavidKok, on 2025-October-01, 13:52, said:

Personally I would go one of two ways over your opening:

• Make 2♥ a game forcing relay, asking for a partial shape description. You can show 21 hand types at or below 3NT with standard relay approaches. Your opening contains 24 5431-type hands, 4 4441-type hands and 12 5440-type hands. If you give up on the 5440-type (pretend they are 4441) and conceal one feature (probably show the short suit and the 5-piece, so that it's 5(43)1) you've compressed this to 16 types, so you can even partially undo this compression and sometimes show the four card suit. This also allows all 2♠-and-up bids to be at most invitational, and they should probably be pass-or-correct with 2NT being a generic asking invite.

I really like this option, and since I actually have only 12 5431 type hands, I can show almost all shapes completely below 3NT (A few 5440 will be clubbed with 5431). The trade-off I suppose is that we dont have a weak 2H signoff and therefore can only play in H at the third level...

So that makes

• 2H - artifical GF 'asking'
  
• 2S/3C/3D - lowest 4-card suit: pass-or-correct, less than invitational bid (opener passes, even with a 3 card suit)
  
• 2NT - the generic invite

What would be your response structure to 2NT? At the minimum, I would want to show 8 types (min with shortness in C/D/H/S; max with shortness in C/D/H/S). There should definitely be a more efficient way of doing this than just bidding the short suit.

[DavidKok]

Sorry, you're right. Your post clearly stated that the five card suit (if any) is a minor. I read that, then promptly forgot it before writing my script. My mistake.

I'm not sure what the followup structure to 2NT should look like. I also think you should ideally not use that bid too often - it self-preempts, while still wanting to retain the option to stop at the 3-level opposite a minimum. In systems with an asking bid alongside pass-or-correct bids you can cleverly overload some of the responses, e.g. how over a multi 2♦ it is common for 2♥ to be pass/correct but also contain invitational or possibly even stronger hands opposite spades only.
Keep in mind that, with certain common hand types (e.g. 4432), there's no guarantee of an 8-card fit (well, unless it's 4=4 in the minors). And even if there is one, there might not be room to find it. I think for that reason alone the 2NT response is probably not going to be a load-bearing part of any such systems - better to sacrifice nuance and make the game forcing relay, praying that opener has some extras or the 22-point game rolls home. Usually if a system is too self-preemptive the invitational sequences are among the first to go.

Over 2♦-2NT I might try something like:

• 3♣: Minimum with clubs. Partner can pass, or bid a new suit up the line if they don't like clubs.
  
• 3♦: Maximum, short minor. 3♥ asks which.
  
• 3♥: Minimum, short clubs. Possibly awkward on 4=3=5=1. However, partner bypassed 2♠, so presumably partner can pull to spades in a pinch? You might play a 3-3 fit here sometimes.
  
• 3♠: Maximum, short spades.
  
• 3NT: Maximum, short hearts.

The inability to distinguish 3-card major suits from 4-card major suits is going to be an issue here.
Note that you don't have to show all hand types with a minimum. If responder is invitational and opener is minimum we don't care about full shape, we just want a playable strain and to drop the auction at the 3-level.

I think there's room to improve this structure. However, the first line of defence is probably to not bid 2NT.


P.S.: With the corrected list of hand types, there might be room to use 2♠ as the game forcing relay (showing 13 hand types up to 3NT). If you compress the 1=3=(54) and 3=1=(54) there's only 10 5431's left. That means you can fit e.g. 4=4=4=1, 4=4=1=4, making 12. If you put (41)44 in with (41)=5=3 or (41)=3=5 depending on texture - not great but thankfully the hand types are rare - you always get shortage and exact major suit lengths on all hand types except the rare 5440's. And even those can partially recover: put 4=4=(05) in with 4=4=(14), but (40)(45) is going to have to be shown as (41)(35).
This would allow for a P/C type 2♥, which relieves some pressure compared to 2♠ as it lands you in a playable strain at the 2-level whenever responder has length in both majors.