[jillybean]

"We need to agree on whether FSJ or Bergen raises take precedence when our 1M is followed by a TO Dble"

This question, from one of my partners, was a little surprising as I have never played Fit Jumps.
Perhaps one day I did nod and agree to play FSJ but prayed it wouldn't come up and promptly forgot about it, and it hasn't come up until now.

Does anyone play it here, along with Bergen?
(I'd rather spend time on twalsh but that is not going to fly.)

Bonus question; club game, 1st seat 42,AT2,K985,A854 ?

[DavidKok]

I do not play Bergen, though I have for several years in the past. They are slightly less useful after RHO doubles partner's 1M opening as 2NT is now available - by frequency it's not ideal to have that retain a J2NT meaning (or a natural one, with redouble available). However, splitting the mixed raise (approx 6-9) from the preemptive 4-card raise (approx 0-5) is still useful, and if you find it convenient I suppose why not keep the Bergen raises.

Personally I do play fit jumps here, but I have to admit they come up very rarely.

That example hand is a pass for me in standard. I like playing systems where I get to open these hands, but it's a plain balanced 11-count not worth upgrading, which is below my opening requirements in standard.

[mike777]

Fwiw, you can play Bergen by UPH and fit jumps by PH.

Please remember Bergen is much much more than just 3C or 3D responses. As such you probably want to keep them as an UPH.
__---+------------++
Again playing Bergen, Marty has additional stuff after one major then takeout double...
It is all Bergen stuff..
All part of Bergen raises.
--++-----


2.5 Quick Tricks, sure I will open

-++++

Btw while Bergen Jacoby 2NT is still much better than "standard" Jacoby 2NT, I have started using a more "modern" version of Jacoby 2NT where most minimum openers respond 3C. After that moderate relays kick in. I say more modern but stuff that is still probably 20 years old..

At my age stuff that is only 15-25 years old is modern bridge.


Smile

[pescetom]

I suspect this discussion would be comprehensible to very few players outside the US and to even less in ten years time.

[mw64ahw]

Bergen raises seem dated in the way they are presented, but I do use something similar. I'm not as keen on fit jumps.

11hcp, 2.5 QT & 7.5 mod. losers sounds like an opening hand

[mike777]

 mw64ahw, on 2026-January-04, 16:24, said:

Bergen raises seem dated in the way they are presented, but I do use something similar. I'm not as keen on fit jumps.

11hcp, 2.5 QT & 7.5 mod. losers sounds like an opening hand

I believe Bergen Raises have been around since 81 or 82..

Blame Robson And Segal around '93 for popularity of fit jumps..


Quick Tricks I just now invented...
Smile

[bluenikki]

mike777, on 2026-January-04, 15:44, said:

-++++

Btw while Bergen Jacoby 2NT is still much better than "standard" Jacoby 2NT, I have started using a more "modern" version of Jacoby 2NT where most minimum openers respond 3C. After that moderate relays kick in. I say more modern but stuff that is still probably 20 years old..

At my age stuff that is only 15-25 years old is modern bridge.


Smile

Names, names, names.

Surely, "Jacoby 2NT" refers to the action after a 2NT showing a strong raise.

Not any possible continuation after "2NT = strong raise."

As to alerts, "strong raise" is shorter than "Jacoby."

[jillybean]

For Partnership Harmony I could try bergen UP and FSJ PH, until another year has passed and the same question comes up again.
Do you have to buy the book to find Marty's description of passed hand bergen?, I've always used 3C (swap for rev bergen) to show 4cards by passed hand.
I do play the "new improved J2nt" The frequency of anything other than 3C response is tiny but useful when partner does have a slammish hand.


42,AT2,K985,A854
To partner's initial question I was able to reply, we wouldn't be in this position, I would have opened 1D, (playing in 3nt for a shared top)

[mike777]

If you are going to play Bergen in all seats, just play it the same way.
No reverse Bergen.

No Drury, I just don't need it.

[akwoo]

I have played fit jumps, though they were a long time ago. The problem with playing fit jumps is that they are quite rare. Particularly at IMPs, they are very good when they come up, but they don't come up much. It's worth it if you (as a partnership) don't like any of the other uses for the bid.

They're a little more common in competition mainly because you'll want to make them with a wider range of hands (both strength-wise and honor-concentration wise) to help partner make 2-way bids (bids that might be to make or might be a good sacrifice, not knowing which).

[Tramticket]

I don't play (or like) Bergen raises, but then again I play four-card majors.

Surely the first question to answer is what is the meaning of a simple change of suit after a double? Personally, I like to play this as 100% forcing, but this isn't universal and I see many playing this as "constructive non-forcing". If the simple change of suit isn't forcing, then a jump change of suit should logically be natural and forcing. I prefer to play a simple change of suit as forcing and a jump as fit jump (what is the S in FSJ - never heard of that acronym!).

42,AT2,K985,A854 is too weak for our 12-14 NT. I pass.

[kreivi68]

You can (almost) have both fit jumps and Bergen raises. This is what I play:

1♦ (X) 3♣
1♥ (X) 3♦
1♠ (X) 3♥

are Bergen raises with 7-9 HCP. Other new-suit jumps are fit jumps.

[DavidKok]

 Tramticket, on 2026-January-05, 02:56, said:

What is the S in FSJ - never heard of that acronym!

I believe it stands for 'Fit Showing Jump'.

[apollo1201]

Sorry and late to the thread.

I do not play Bergen raises but in the past I played sth where all between 2NT and 3-level bids were some kind of fits (detailing 3 or 4 cd, inv, GF or preemptive, etc.).

The « inventor » of that scheme strongly advised against playing it after a TOX and revert to XX, 2NT and fit showing jumps in mentionable 5 or 6-cd suits. The situation is going to get competitive and letting partner assess if honors / hands mesh well is key to good decision making at high levels before advancer bumps in with 3 or 4 oM.

[mycroft]

I really like Fit Jumps in competition and by a passed hand. In competition, the goal is to work out how high to compete and when to bail out (or double). When partner is limited, the chance the hand is competitive is high (when opener doesn't have a big hand). The degree and number of fits help opener work out how high to compete.

I would not be surprised, given that OP is in my general area, that her partner "just assumes FJS after double" is default with a pickup high-level partner, and when Bergen was discussed, knew that this was one of the (many, see below) "what if"s that needed to be cleared up to play it.

Of course, it also helps the opponents work out (from negative inference) when *they* have a double fit and can compete more. Swings and roundabouts, like everything.

I don't *mind* Bergen raises (but this "combined Bergen" they're playing down here breaks the cardinal rule of Bergen, so - ?) but everybody plays it differently, and *everybody* is sure they play it the "normal way" (or the "correct way" at least) (see first parenthetical for just one example, plus the " 'Reverse Bergen' in Alberta is 'Standard' in Ajijic and vice versa" thing). I am happy to play it, if we have a complete discussion (like "is it still on over double? Is it on over overcalls if it's still a jump? If 3C isn't a jump, but 3D is? What about 1NT? Passed hand? What about Drury?" as well as "what do the bids mean?") - but I like other things (like mini-maxi splinters) just as much.

I am reminded of a discussion on Bergen and 123 Stop on these forums maybe 20 years ago, where Fred G. said (paraphrased, from memory) "I don't mind 'being pushed to 3' when they balance. I feel I play the hand better with that information than they defend with it." The more I play, the more I feel that way as well (even if I will never get out of "can't play" level w.r.t. Fred. For one thing, very few of my opponents are not there too).

The goal of Bergen - and it is a good goal - is to get to the Law level immediately with 9 trump, to minimize the information passed by opponents (and the potential sacrifices). But you do lose the chance to use that information yourself. Also, what it gives away when partner has only 3 trump (and the opponents do get to balance) is high.

For constructive auctions, I feel "9 trump and shape" is more useful for game/slam bidding than "9 trump and minimum/medium points". For competitive auctions, I love the "1-3 'less than invitational', you guess. We have the Law on our side." Again, swings and roundabouts. Which one is more important to you - is up to you.

But at least at the levels I play, being able in competition (or "in competition", PH opposite opener) to know that partner has (or doesn't have) a second suit of note as well as support for me is more useful at less cost than anything else, so I play it when partners let me.

[HardVector]

I don't get it. Whether you are playing Bergen or not, the "normal" conventional bid after 1M-(X)- is Jorden. 2n is a limit raise or better with 4+ card support for the major. When did this stop being a thing?

[mike777]

 HardVector, on 2026-January-05, 19:36, said:

I don't get it. Whether you are playing Bergen or not, the "normal" conventional bid after 1M-(X)- is Jorden. 2n is a limit raise or better with 4+ card support for the major. When did this stop being a thing?

I always keep Bergen raises on over takeout double, one less thing to change and memorize. I keep the full Bergen structure, not just limit raises
Again there is a lot more to Bergen raises than the vast majority play.
That means, for me, 2Nt remains strong raise.

If you prefer Jordan, fine