[DavidKok]

On this sequence it doesn't matter whether 2♣ promises 4, 3, 2 or 0.

[jillybean]

DavidKok, on 2026-July-23, 10:47, said:

On this sequence it doesn't matter whether 2♣ promises 4, 3, 2 or 0.

So
1♥:2♣
3♣:3♥ There is no world in which 3H functions as a cue bid?

[DavidKok]

I would always play this sequence as showing a hearts raise, whether or not it also promises clubs.

[jillybean]

DavidKok, on 2026-July-23, 11:24, said:

I would always play this sequence as showing a hearts raise, whether or not it also promises clubs.

Why can't I deny a diamond cue and show a heart A or K, in our gf club auction?

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2026-July-23, 11:21, said:

So
1♥:2♣
3♣:3♥ There is no world in which 3H functions as a cue bid?

You have to give priority to establishing the fit. Why are you refusing to address the key point here: that you appear to have no way of showing a 3 card gf hand. You are digging into a silly position. That kind of attitude will keep you from improving. Good players learn. Bad players argue.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2026-July-23, 11:33, said:

You have to give priority to establishing the fit. Why are you refusing to address the key point here: that you appear to have no way of showing a 3 card gf hand. You are digging into a silly position. That kind of attitude will keep you from improving. Good players learn. Bad players argue.

Playing 2♣* clubs or balanced , if balanced ♣ could be as short as 2 (I'd like 0) is the 3 card gf hand.

I'm learning a lot, but I love this treatment so I will argue for it. It is the same system other than we don't bid 2D with 4 cards

I'm off to Direct, I'll catch up on this later to relearn why my method won't work.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2026-July-23, 11:42, said:

Playing 2♣* clubs or balanced , if balanced ♣ could be as short as 2 (I'd like 0) is the 3 card gf hand.

I'm learning a lot, but I love this treatment so I will argue for it. It is the same system other than we don't bid 2D with 4 cards

You keep on digging in. Are my posts unclear? I have played 1H 2C as 3+ for many years…1S 2C as 2+. Tyat has absolutely NOTHING to do with the meaning of 1H 2C 3C 3H. What part of this do you refuse to comprehend?

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2026-July-23, 11:50, said:

You keep on digging in. Are my posts unclear? I have played 1H 2C as 3+ for many years…1S 2C as 2+. Tyat has absolutely NOTHING to do with the meaning of 1H 2C 3C 3H. What part of this do you refuse to comprehend?

I am trying to understand.

[mike777]

jillybean, on 2026-July-23, 10:28, said:

How many clubs are promised?

I have to talk with the partners who play the "nebulous 2C", where I am having trouble is with those who play 2m showing 4+
In my style, 2D is 5 cards. (corrected)

omg

I think MikeH is saying specifically after starting 1Major=2clubs(any style of 2C)=3 clubs=3Major, always, always shows a game force raise with 3 card support.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2026-July-23, 11:52, said:

I am trying to understand.

Start by answering the question I’ve posed to you several times but which you don’t seem to even recognize as an issue. How does responder show a 3 card gf raise in your methods? Unless you have some unusual agreement, and I’d be surprised if you did and even more surprise see if it made sense, then you are either intentionally refusing to find your 5-3 major suit fit (which is truly bizarre) or you must..surely you must…see that in your given sequence 3H shows…hearts. Just step back from your fervent desire to be seen as right. You’re deep,y wrong and it’s frustrating to see you so blinded by your preconceptions

[DavidKok]

 jillybean, on 2026-July-23, 11:27, said:

Why can't I deny a diamond cue and show a heart A or K, in our gf club auction?

Showing the fit is more important. If we want to investigate clubs we take a different route. It's too early for controls, clarify shape and degree of fit first.

[jillybean]

mikeh, on 2026-July-23, 12:31, said:

Start by answering the question I’ve posed to you several times but which you don’t seem to even recognize as an issue. How does responder show a 3 card gf raise in your methods? Unless you have some unusual agreement, and I’d be surprised if you did and even more surprise see if it made sense, then you are either intentionally refusing to find your 5-3 major suit fit (which is truly bizarre) or you must..surely you must…see that in your given sequence 3H shows…hearts. Just step back from your fervent desire to be seen as right. You’re deep,y wrong and it’s frustrating to see you so blinded by your preconceptions

I thought I had answered your question, but let me clarify: we use a 2C response to a 1M opening to show a game-forcing hand that holds either 3-card Major support, a balanced hand, or a real Club suit.

My Method: The 2♣ bid can be as short as a 2 card suit, while a 2♦ response strictly promises a 5 card suit.
As far as I know, the standard North American approach typically expects 4+ cards for a 2m response. I found this awkward.

I have played this method for many years now. While it might not be a standard textbook approach, it has proven to be highly effective for my partnerships, and we enjoy the bidding space it creates.
In fact like it enough to want to explore Zero Club 2♣ forcing auctions next.

I don't want to argue about who is 'right,' I simply enjoy playing a method that works well for me. That said, if I could understand why the standard method is better, I would change my methods.

[WasWinM]

My internet was down yesterday and part of today so I'm late to chime in. I think, JB, you're getting distracted.
Here is the essence: When you look at responder's hand after partner has opened the bidding with 1H, how does that hand show a game forcing heart raise?
That's really all you have to solve and then you'll know what 3H has to mean, regardless of a club fit.

[mikeh]

jillybean, on 2026-July-23, 20:34, said:

I thought I had answered your question, but let me clarify: we use a 2C response to a 1M opening to show a game-forcing hand that holds either 3-card Major support, a balanced hand, or a real Club suit.

My Method: The 2♣ bid can be as short as a 2 card suit, while a 2♦ response strictly promises a 5 card suit.
As far as I know, the standard North American approach typically expects 4+ cards for a 2m response. I found this awkward.

I have played this method for many years now. While it might not be a standard textbook approach, it has proven to be highly effective for my partnerships, and we enjoy the bidding space it creates.
In fact like it enough to want to explore Zero Club 2♣ forcing auctions next.

I don't want to argue about who is 'right,' I simply enjoy playing a method that works well for me. That said, if I could understand why the standard method is better, I would change my methods.

I give up. You go live in your own fantasy of idiosyncratic bidding, thinking you’re some kind of genius bidding theorist. Meanwhile, I feel sorry for your partners and teammates.

[jillybean]

Mike, just because you disagree, does not make it a fanciful idiosyncratic bidding concept.

BW Andrew Grumperz

Understanding N2C Md. Anisuzzaman

BW Improved N2C Feb 2026

[jillybean]

DavidKok, on 2026-July-23, 13:53, said:

Showing the fit is more important. If we want to investigate clubs we take a different route. It's too early for controls, clarify shape and degree of fit first.

Yes, agree, I was getting sidetracked

mike777, on 2026-July-23, 12:19, said:

I think MikeH is saying specifically after starting 1Major=2clubs(any style of 2C)=3 clubs=3Major, always, always shows a game force raise with 3 card support.

3 not 4 clubs cards, I think this is where the misunderstanding or incomplete description originated.
enough said

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2026-July-23, 23:38, said:

Yes, agree, I was getting sidetracked


3 not 4 clubs cards, I think this is where the misunderstanding or incomplete description originated.
enough said

Sigh

3Clubs is a bid, after the 2club bid, not the number of cards


Mass confusion..

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2026-July-23, 08:16, said:

---

On this one probably
1H-2C
2H-3NT
p

2H again showing minimum opening hand, exactly 5H, denies good 4Card diamonds suit, often but not always a weak NT type hand

3NT shows balanced 16-18 or so.

_---------
The direct raise to 3Clubs would show a non minimum
Make the 8C the KC

_------++-------

Those links you show regarding nebulous club stuff gave me a headache, no way I am playing that stuff..

A

[jillybean]

mike777, on 2026-July-24, 00:11, said:

Sigh

3Clubs is a bid, after the 2club bid, not the number of cards


Mass confusion..

What do you mean Any style of 2C bid?

[mike777]

 jillybean, on 2026-July-24, 00:43, said:

What do you mean Any style of 2C bid?

1H-2C
2C can be 2+ style or 3+ or 4+